Tuesday, October 20, 2009 15 Comments

South Africa: a message to Jenny

I apologize for the apparent dereliction of UR. I have been working on a somewhat longer post, on the design of the Antiversity. It will appear this Thursday.

In the meantime, I thought I would steal some content from another blog, and post it here for your consideration and discussion. The original authors cannot possibly protest, because they are racists and racists have no rights.

The victim of my piratical act is perhaps the world's most notorious racist blog, South Africa Sucks. It is certainly the world's best racist blog, though the competition in this category is hardly stiff. Even SAS has seen better days - its founder and best writer, "The Uhuru Guru," also a dark master of Photoshop with a seemingly endless collection of primate stock photography, is semi-retired. Of course there is a large quantity of idiotic, illiterate Stormfront Nazism to be found at SAS, especially in the comments. But at least they have an official policy against Jew-hating. Moreover, the great secret of SAS is that in general the posters are former liberals.

That said, SAS is a cesspool of modern hate. I study it. I don't endorse it. I certainly will not link to it, and on balance its effect on its goals is probably counterproductive. Nonetheless, as we'll see, it clearly has a cathartic effect for many people.

If you wonder why any literate, intelligent person would read a website that feels no shame whatsoever in stitching the head of Nelson Mandela to the body of Papio anubis, perhaps you should start with this brief review in that impeccably conscious journal, Newsweek:
The most dramatic figures can be found among South African whites, who are leaving at a pace consistent with the advent of "widespread disease, mass natural disasters or large-scale civil conflict," according to a report by the South African Institute on Race Relations. Some 800,000 out of a total white population of 4 million have left since 1995, by one count.
"Widespread disease, mass natural disasters or large-scale civil conflict." Well, I never. Who'd have thunk it? As we have come to expect here at UR, all the wrong people. Whatever present history is, it is not the story of the victory of the accurate predictors. So, from reason's standpoint, there is a reason to read the wrong people. Read on.

For your reading comfort, I have elided all racial slurs and other potty language from the pirated text. SAS being SAS, this was quite a bit of work. If you need the context to this discussion, try this search, but I think it is fairly clear. The details are certainly not important.

Our original poster, "doodler," writes:
Today we received a (for a change) a reasonably more rational criticism from Jenny who opines:

Enough with all of this hatred, guys. Maybe I am a liberal, and maybe all the horrible things that you have been saying are true, but vomiting such bile is helping no-one. I challenge you all to take a long, hard look at yourselves and decide whether calling people ‘[slur]' makes you superior in any way, whether playing the blame game makes this country any better, and whether Bianca (may she rest in peace) would really have wanted her death to have led to such outpourings of hatred, violence and abuse.

Peace be with you all.

This comment has made me consider, once more, why we contribute to this blog. Interesting that she agrees that the "horrible things" we say are true. But then, in the same sentence she says that "vomiting such bile is helping no-one." With respect, I disagree vehemently with you. You see Jenny, we have a moral obligation to let the rest of the world know exactly what is happening in SA. Some of the bloggers here used to be ardent liberals. For me, I used to be a left winger. I also really believed that post 1994 would be the beginning of the Rainbow Nation and we would all live happily in lala land. Stoopid, huh?

Unfortunately you, together with tens of thousands of white SAns, are one of those brainwashed persons who seriously believe (and hope) that if you ignore the problem it will go away. I do not for one minute blame you. This is a common reaction evinced by the vast majority of peace loving people. The just want to be left alone to do their own thing, and enjoy their lives. Nothing wrong with that. On Saturday, I met a white lady who has recently returned to [slur] after spending around seven years in the USA. She is totally horrified at the situation here and how dramatically things have changed for the worse in the time she was gone. She is going back as soon as she can.

But anyway, Jen the point is that you need to read the articles and the comments here in the correct context. Those people who "vomit bile" are outraged about the doings and screwings of our [inventive slur]. They are not blinded by the MSM. They see the Emperor is stark naked. They experience the unpleasantness of living in SA. Of having to watch your back continuously. Of going into attack mode when the alarm system is triggered. Of worrying that your spouse/kids will arrive home safely without being hijacked and killed. Of walking into a restaurant and checking that their security arrangements are adequate. Shall I continue? I think you get my drift. Truth is that they know they are helpless and cannot do anything about it. For all the braggadocio some of them exclaim, they know they can do zilch. So they express these feelings in a way some find odious. But at least they are venting.
[...]
It is also not a question of playing the blame game as you put it. It is pointing out facts… Which, by your own admission, are true. You may not like it, but they are true. Your reference to Bianca is a bit below the belt. I honestly mourn her passing, because had things turned out a bit differently, that could have been my own daughter. I really do not want to comment on that…

So Jenny, in closing, this blog and what it seeks to achieve, is there for you too. I’m pretty sure we have touched your heart and maybe, hopefully planted a seed in your mind. I wish you well in your future. And please, be careful out there….
This, of course, attracted much agreement - and also some trolls. What kind of crazy liberal would be trolling a blog like SAS? Plenty, as it turns out - a measure of the blog's impact. SAS gets a lot more hits than UR, I think, though these are of course much lower-quality hits.

"Al [Arabized expletive]" writes:
You guys disgust me. I have never seen so much hatred in my life. Considering that this website only seems to perpetuate racism and hatred, what possible good do you think can come of it? All of you seem to have this false rhetoric that your goal is noble and for the good of white South Africans. People like you only increase racism and incidences of crimes and racial attacks in South Africa. When you treat black people with such contempt and ignominy, you cause them to feel the same feelings towards white people.

I’m not sure on any of your backgrounds, but I’m guessing most of you are middle aged men who felt that Apartheid was the best time of your lives. Well, as part of the new generation, I feel it my duty to thank all of you for [expletive] over future generations of white south Africans. All Apartheid did was lead to the [expletive] which is South Africa today. All of you sit here and blame the blacks for all the problems, when in fact the very root of the problems today stem from white south African actions during Apartheid. You have made your bed, now sleep in it.

Apartheid robbed the black population of 2 extremely important factors - Education and Family life. Without education, the black population is largely unskilled and thus left poor and destitute with few opportunities, leading them to look elsewhere and sometimes turn to crime. Without family-life the current young population of blacks was robbed of having good role models in their lives and had few family values as a result.

The only way to get past this is to move forward. What you are all doing will serve only to make manners worse and lead to further violence. There are better ways to react than through hatred. I have been subject to many robberies and muggings, and of course, they always leave a sour taste in the mouth. But hatred and racism will not solve any of it. I’m not saying sit back and do nothing, but rather get involved in ways to instill values and education back into the black population, and this is what many white south africans are doing now. What the [expletive] are you guys doing to help?
"I have been subject to many robberies and muggings, and of course, they always leave a sour taste in the mouth."

Open your ears to the subtle beauty of pure self-expression. Just like Jenny's message, just like doodler's response, the author's limited literacy serves only to emphasize the sincerity of the content. These people are not wankers. They are not exercising their wits, out of sheer boredom and egotism, on some lame Internet board. They are saying what they genuinely believe. Certainly, no one could write any of these messages without believing in them entirely and completely. This is not literature - it is truth. From two very different directions.

This, of course, provokes the fascists - literate and otherwise - of SAS, to explosive flamage. In one of the more intelligible responses, "CrystalClear" writes:
"When you treat black people with such contempt and ignominy, you cause them to feel the same feelings towards white people."

No, actually it’s the other way around. I was once one of you ignorant liberals, but after being treated with contempt and ignominy my perspective has been changed. Not by whites - but by BLACKS.

My kids grew up in a liberal *blush* and "everyone is equal" home, and went to govern[slur] schools. Until one day they came home and announced that black people were stupid and violent and kept on disrupting the classes - and my daughter was afraid to be anywhere on the school grounds alone.

I didn’t teach them that. I tried to make them see my liberal point of view. Being exposed to [slur] behaviour daily made them see the light.

Thank heavens I saw the light soon after. Purely from observation and personal experiences (you know the kind - attempted hijacking, robberies, AA, murder… yep experienced them all).

This is one white liberal that learnt the hard way that blacks are a violent, lazy, ignorant, stupid, hateful species which have no dignity or compassion.
If anyone at the SPLC reads UR, they must be spasming repeatedly in their pants. Here we see the very birth of hate, recounted in original testimony in less than 100 words. How can a good liberal slip from the path of righteousness, and become a hater? Ask "CrystalClear." The whiteness-studies professors of the world should be beating a path to his or her door.

"Anony" has an even more direct response:
The country I once knew, called South Africa, has had a serious stroke – a [slur] stroke. I look at my country today on a map and it is still in the same location it was a thousands years ago. The cities are still there, so are the trees and the wild animals, etc, but, alas, I don’t recognise it anymore. It has grown into a monstrous failure steered by unmoral melanotic madmen hell bent on usurping my next of kin’s inner souls.

South Africa had 15 years to prove itself. Sadly, it has failed utterly and dismally. That, my friend, is what this blog is all about.

We, the bloggers of this fine blog, will not surrender our cause. Go [expletive] yourself, you useless geek.
But it is "Anti-[slur]" who responds with the mother of all racist comments. After editing this comment, which make the Nixon transcripts look like the speeches of Lord Russell, I had to reboot my computer to get it out of the clipboard. Please, everyone, never, ever post anything like this on UR. Nonetheless, it is a primary source and a tiny piece of history - and, like all these messages, unquestionably sincere.
I read all this [expletive] from liberal [expletive] [expletive] like Al [expletive] and Jenny [slur-expletive] and the only conclusion that I can come to is that only people with brains had the foresight after developments in Southern Africa surrounding the so called independence of Angola, Mocambique, Rhodesia, Zambia etc. to see that SA was [expletive].

There was no way that a white minority population was going to hold off the exploding black population, there was also no way that the [expletive] were going to incorporate this white population into the new dispensation and afford them any minority rights.

The consequence of that is SA as we see it today with a black backlash against the whites for perceived "injustices" that is gaining momentum daily.

The ANC terrorist kleptocracy has had 20 years to get their act together and have instead used it to squander untold billions of Rands on enriching themselves, R200 Billion Eskom deficit, R60 Billion Arms deal for a war against who? Another R47 Billion for the Airbus military transport plane debacle and if we add up the personal excesses of each and every other minor [slur] in national, ragional and local government with their collection of Mercedes Benzes, BMW’s Audi’s etc, we could easily round this figure off to a Trillion Rand squandered by the [slur] since the release of the false god Mandela in 1990.

In the interim, they have transformed the country into a veritable [expletive] pit with an unmanageable crime problem that in turn is devolving into and spawning gangsters who are transforming into warlords and a law unto themselves. ANC incompetence has seen every component of the systems and structures that hold a society and an economy together fracture and disintegrate rendering them nothing more than a small collection of greedy [expletive] pigs with access to the trough that the other 60 million behind them are fighting to get to.

As such there is no government in SA - everything is falling to pieces as they spend uncontrollably. Law and Order does not exist, the police and the judiciary is a [expletive] mockery. The SANDF is defunct, the Metro is a collection of [expletive] criminals in uniform, public healthcare is [expletive] and they now want to [expletive] the private healthcare sector. Service delivery is collapsing, there is no maintenance of any component of the infrastructure, roads are falling apart, electricity delivery is falling apart, water reticulation is falling apart, education is a [expletive] joke - just what exactly are these [expletive] governing if they claim to be a government?

The misery that this has visited on the [slur] population and the potential for further misery which is the hallmark of Africa is incalculable and one cannot help asking the question of just how much of this could have been alleviated if the ANC terrorist regime had sought to address the so called "past imbalances" by judicious expenditure of the billions they have squandered?

The reason they didn’t address the so-called "past imbalances" is because there weren’t any - the useless [expletive] unherited a perfectly viable and functional country, economy and infrastructure, all they had to do was sustain it.

Anyway, I’m not going to unpack this any further - the point is the [slur] have [expletive] everything up for themselves. White people with the savvy to see that SA was heading down the [expletive] same as all the other [slur] countries prepared for it and made provision to get out of South Africa and have made comfortable, safe lives for themselves and their children in countries all over the world.

I’m honestly of the opinion that the bulk of the whites that have stayed in SA are liberal nanny-bangers and as we have seen, liberals are [expletive] retards who identify with the [slur] because they themselves are white [slur].

One of the more peculiar characteristics of these white liberal [slur] is that they blame whites who have expressed outrage on this site about the murder of whites for the hatred and criminal violence in SA, but what escapes them is that where blacks are concerned, this manifests in the crime against whites that we see in SA everyday, it manifests in the insane babble spewed by this [expletive] [primate] Malema who also had some [offensive acronym] journalist spouting [expletive] juice all over the place the other day about what a fantastic little [slur] he was and it manifests in the perpetual anti-white rhetoric that gets blasted out by the media all the time at every opportunity.

However the anger and outrage of whites after nearly 20 years of escalating persecution by the [slur] has to date only really manifested in the type of sentiment often expressed on this site. But somehow in the mind of the liberal [expletive], people like me going off and swearing the [expletive] [slur] into hades and back is a worse indictment than marauding armed [slur] running around in groups attacking and killing defenceless whites wherever they can at every opportunity.

It begs the question of whether I, as a white with the interests of the white population, regardless of how “inappropriately” they are expressed, at the centre of my convictions; should concern myself with [expletive] idiots who get themselves killed by [expletive] around in [slur] areas? Should I concern myself with mentally [expletive] retarded [expletive] who haven’t got the pig-[expletive] betwen their ears to sit their wives or daughters down and do everything in their power to dissuade them from putting their lives in danger - why the [expletive] didn’t this woman’s parents and husband encourage her to become a vet and then throw her into the lions den at Jo’burg zoo after convincing her that she would be safe from the lions because she was there to help them - two different scenarios but the same measure of [expletive] stupidity. For [expletive], how many [expletive] stupid liberal retards have been killed [expletive] around in [slur] areas trying to "help" them and people are still convinced 20 years down the road that it was because of "Aputt-hate" and everything wrong in SA today is the fault of whites, currently and historically.

I didn’t know this girl from a bar of soap but the rage that swept through me when I read the article elicited my response. When I saw the photos of her pathetic little body under that space blanket, her shoes off (probably stolen by [slur]) and her blonde hair I cried that such a beautiful, talented young woman should die at the prime of her youth killed by [expletive] [slur] who according to their ages should have had the same opportunities to do something with their lives according to the promises of the lying ANC terrorists, after all they were born after "Aputt-hate was defeated."

And according to the liberal [expletive] brigade that makes me worse than the perpetrators of deeds like this?

Once again, should I concern myself with this? Because not concerning myself with the white genocide in SA amounts to apathy and apathy amounts to doing nothing - as the one [expletive] [slur] [expletive] here said, the type of nothing that involves chilling and smoking dagga and pretending that this is not happening in SA.

What the liberal [expletive] don’t realise is that evil triumphs when people do nothing and that’s what happened in SA - whites did nothing to prevent the triumph of evil and evil of the nature of the heinous black racist crimes we see in SA has triumphed.

It seems further that these liberal [expletive] believe that whites in SA should resign themselves to paying permanent pennance [sic] for the so called "past injustices" and in the process, murder victims like Bianca should just be regarded as acceptable consequences.

What about all the good that white people have done for the [slur] in SA? Do these [expletive] liberals want to sit there and tell us that the whites did far more bad for the [slur] than they did good? Well according to the TRC, Apartheid wasn’t so bad for the blacks after all, which raises the question that if reprisals for the so-called “past injustices” justifies the genocide of whites in SA today, then by the same logic, what should whites expect from blacks in return for the schools, houses, hospitals, universities etc. etc. etc. that we provided for the blacks because so far all they’re telling us is that we should be grovelling at their feet licking their [expletive] for sparing us the genocide in 1994 that they’ve been so industriously engaged in on a piecemeal basis ever since - over 35 000 innocent unarmed white civilian men women and children, including 3085 white farmers murdered by armed black racist [slur].

Well as I said, I’ve come to the conclusion that white South Africans with the brains, talent and ability to make it in other safer, better countries have done so - I certainly have - and the ones that have stayed behind are the mentally retarded liberals who believe that a sub-species characterised by their congenital predisposition for killing whites for trinkets of little to no value is going to allow them and their children to live in peace and prosperity in [slur]?

There should actually be no reason why that should not be the case. Given the vast spaces and massive natural wealth in SA, the requirements, even on a level of a fairly wealthy lifestyle, of the tiny population of two million whites should be of no consequence but apparently the [slur] and the liberals don’t agree and feel that the last pennance [sic] for the so-called "evils of Apartheid" still have not been milked from this small population.

Some clever oke once said that there was nothing as infinite as the universe and human stupidity and I believe that given the postings of aforementioned liberal [expletive] on this site, another dimension can be added to the infinity of human stupidity and that is that liberals are the black holes of infinite human stupidity.

I have no further ties to [slur], I may have harboured a desire to one day go back there but that diminishes with each day that I read [expletive] like this and quite frankly even more so when I consider that I would be surrounded by [expletive] and perverts in a cesspit of crime and evil and frankly I don’t give a [expletive] about the place anymore.

As sad as it may be, if young whites like Bianca Warburton are going to risk their lives to be sacrificed on the altar of liberalism, multiculturalism and a variety of other [slur-expletive] cults while the liberal [expletive] fraternity applauds their demise as they hail the humanity of the [slur] who kill them then should we really give a [expletive]?
Again, please do not post anything like this ever at UR. It is historical evidence, not literature. How do you respond to a scenario like this, without becoming a Nazi? Discuss - without making me filter the comments, please.

(Readers may also feel refreshed and restored by this impeccably-written progressive essay about the fate of Detroit - which features some aerial shots that are simply breathtaking. Is it possible to write a progressive essay about the fate of Detroit? Yes, Virginia, it is!)

15 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

TOC for UR

October 20, 2009 at 4:06 PM  
Anonymous Jane Doe said...

How about the same way everyone before the 1930's did? It's only in the last century that anyone came up with the notion that loyalty to your own group or defending yourself against barbarians or not encouraging bloodthirsty savages to invade your country meant murdering all of the members of a completely peaceable and highly civilized group.

October 20, 2009 at 9:23 PM  
Anonymous Patung said...

"SAS gets a lot more hits than UR, I think, though these are of course much lower-quality hits."

They would get more traffic yes,.... on the quality front....plugging your url into googlereader says 1006 subs, zasucks 69 subs, whopping difference, people who use rss readers are a very small minority and that's some indication of quality of readership I guess.

October 20, 2009 at 11:01 PM  
Anonymous Molyuk said...

"How do you respond to a scenario like this, without becoming a Nazi?"

With passivity, of course. Blacks outnumber whites nearly 9 to 1. That ratio will only increase. Whether the failure of post-Apartheid governance is the fault of a legacy of white racism or the inherent incompetence of blacks doesn't really matter. The country dies either way.

Given the history of sub-Saharan Africa, the fall of South Africa is no surprise. The surprise is that it ever climbed so high in the first place.

October 21, 2009 at 1:21 AM  
Blogger Stone said...

"How do you respond to a scenario like this, without becoming a Nazi?"

Could mean different things. Could mean:

1) What might a successful political movement do to materially address this problem so that the killing stops? (e.g. it might re-establish a colonial government and keep the peace as was done in Africa in previous centuries)

2) What do you as a powerless individual do to keep yourself safe? (e.g. you might get the hell out of there)

3) What do you do as a thinker to make sense of what is happening?

The last seems to me to be the most pertinent question, because it's the most relevant to me (I have no power and I am already far from South Africa).

I'm struck by the fact that the racist language is virtually irrelevant (seeing as the meaning is preserved by removing it), and the racist concepts, which are still present, nevertheless make up only a small part of the essay. Even Mencius Moldbug seems to agree, since he writes, "How do you respond to a scenario like this" - which question presupposes that the racist narrative has managed to communicate to us a real "scenario" - despite all the "racism". This is worth remarking on, because it is commonly thought that racists have an inaccurate understanding of reality.

Frankly it seems a bit self-involved, a bit narcissistic, to worry about whether one is slipping into racist ways of thinking when here's a girl who was murdered, and thousands like her are being murdered. It seems to me that this over-concern with the purity of one's soul, that one not think racist thoughts (compare: sinful thoughts) is an inheritance from Christianity, which also is overly concerned with the purity of one's soul. The point of the purity of the soul is of course to get into heaven and to avoid hell, so why are atheists still obsessing over the purity of their soul? That's a curious thing.

Anyway, the question seems to be, how can we think about the violent events in South Africa without misusing racial categories? This prompts the question: what is a misuse of racial categories? Is a misuse anything that the politically correct say is a misuse? No, it's not - political correctness has gone off the deep end, rendering it impossible to perceive reality as it is in politically correct terms. It is evidently what has led many liberals in South Africa to walk into the lion's den thinking that good intentions are armor enough. If we want to avoid misuse of racial categories we, the non-politically correct, must come up with our own rules.

The most important rule is, stay alive. If your thoughts impede the perceptions necessary to keep you alive, then those thoughts are bad thoughts.

So what do we do with thoughts like, "stay out of black areas" and "blacks are dangerous"? These thoughts will keep you alive. Do they lump innocent peaceful blacks in with barbarians? Yes, they do. But they keep you alive, and you don't want to drop them until you've replaced them with an alternative thought that also keeps you alive, while (hopefully) respecting the distinction between the civilized and the barbarians.

October 21, 2009 at 4:46 AM  
Blogger Black Sea said...

Hey, I clicked on the link. Looks like Detroit's got plenty of space for a World's Fair, an Olympics, or a Rainbow Gathering. Maybe the president can look into that.

October 21, 2009 at 9:54 AM  
Blogger nazgulnarsil said...

Stone that is the most thought provoking post on racism i have ever seen. will be stealing your material.

October 21, 2009 at 10:00 AM  
Blogger James A. Donald said...

South Africa fell, because including the worst whites led it to exclude the best blacks - who would have economically competed with those white voting blocks.

Obviously the solution is that civilized people must engage in collective self defense. However, identifying people as civilized or uncivilized solely on race and ethnicity is not satisfactorily reliable, and over reliance on such an unreliable measure has been demonstrated to have bad effects.

On the other hand, excluding only proven criminals leaves too many criminals inside the walls.

First, kill all criminals - the death penalty for trespassing, pick pocketing, shoplifting, disturbing the peace, offensive language, etc.

Second, exclude all suspected potential criminals - which will look rather like ethnic cleansing, but it has been demonstrated that ethnic cleansing is an imperfect substitute for what is actually needed. How do we separate people into plausibly criminal and plausibly non criminal groups more accurately than by race alone?

Well anyone who has legitimately acquired substantial assets is intelligent, diligent, and has high future orientation, so profile him as probably non criminal. Also, there are certain jobs where you do not hire anyone unless you have profiled him as probably non criminal, and you fire him on any indication of criminality, so again, anyone who does one of those jobs, probably non criminal.

And if someone is profiled pretty well as non criminal, we encourage him to vouch for others - his family, his friends, his acquaintances - and his servants. Of course, if some of those misbehave, well you delete his vouchings. And of course if anyone is on the inside solely on the vouching of one person, that one person can unvouch at any time and the guy's id card suddenly no longer works.

In short, to make the old South African system work, some whites needed to be reclassified outsiders, and some blacks reclassified as insiders - a substantial proportion of the white voters needed such reclassification.

October 21, 2009 at 5:07 PM  
Anonymous Wanderer through the Right Field said...

As a Brazilian, I might give you some insight about what people would do in order to prevent yourself from getting killed during an attempted car hijack when you are standing in front of the traffic light:

If you ask the Police what to do, they would say "do not re-act agressively, give you car and your wallet away". That's what I call the "Thief Fee". I must pay a fee to keep yourself alive. It seems that government has found its way of it using other terms. I will explain later.

If you check on the market, you will find many models of bullet-proof cars. This is useful in both Rio, where a bullet can just fall from the sky, or in São Paulo, where it gives time to accelerate the car.

You know, back in Brazil one cannot blame the blacks (6% of the actual population; 44% whites, 50% brownish). The left-wing sages are used to blame poverty, but it is formidable as most of the persons who live in poverty do not used drugs nor have ever hold a weapon.

(Currently weapons are very, very restricted back here; one must have forgotten to let the drug dealers know).

--

The first clear ellected left-wing government was in 1994. But the conservatives had already lost the cultural war in a way similar to what happened in US (I mean, even though the regular folk is conservative, the people who can make a career in any kind of Human Studies and the press are predominatly left-wing). Now in 2009 it is funny, because there is no such thing as a conservative party; the one which could be named "conservative" know calls itself "Democratic" and explicitly says it is inspired by the american couterpart. It seems that categories such as "inner party" and "outer party" do not make sense to a Client state such as Brazil.

I digress. Brazilian politicians must have by chance found a way help the unlucky, buy off the criminals and, ironically, get rid of the bureaucracy. Its name is "Bolsa-Família" (Family Sponsorship). A Brazilian politician names it "Minimum Income"; others name it "Negative Income Tax". Actually, they give money directly to the persons that are entitled. It depends on the total incoming of a family, and the observance of a few minor requirements (such as keeping the kids at school).

Please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that there was something like this in US, created by Roosevelt during the New Deal, and then eliminated only by Clinton. It meant 400 dollars a year - nothing. In Brazil it currently means approximately 200 dollars a month - and I tell you, this is money in the low classes.

The liberals in Economics - and here I use it in the European meaning, as the "little-government supporters" - will think that it is only one additional reason to increase taxes. These guys have not noticed how suspicious it is that there are not many hearted supporters of the policy in the left-wing field. That's for a very simple reason: it does not create as many jobs as possible in the government. It makes the public service (not the public regulations) irrelevant. It makes keeping children out of school in order to work dangerous, as the persons may loose the sponsorship. And it seems far cheaper than having lots of bureaucrats making up their minds about "what is the public interest now".

(Public Interest is the version of Rousseaunian volonté geral for state lawyers.)

I have not developed the concept very well - nor I have Moldburg's skills to do it. But I have the impression that the power of a Negative Income Tax on the necessity of a government - at least in a client state - is not negligible.

October 22, 2009 at 8:33 AM  
Blogger TGGP said...

Wanderer:
In the U.S the negative income tax or guaranteed minimal income is most closely associated with Milton Friedman. Charles Murray wrote a book called "In Our Hands: A Plan to Replace the Welfare State" in which he advocated something like that (I think it was also advocated in the book about his take on libertarianism). Murray is also associated with criticism of welfare, his earlier book "Losing Ground" is sometimes attributed with welfare reform a.k.a "the end of welfare as we know it" under Clinton. Many libertarians favor direct cash transfers over bureaucracies and paternalistic restrictions. Friedrich Hayek and James Buchanan also promoted limited versions of the welfare state.

October 22, 2009 at 8:24 PM  
Anonymous Another Brazilian said...

Wanderer, I think the South African situation is more dire than Rio or São Paulo's. I live in Rio, and you do not hear the kind of reports that come from South Africa. Robberies can be somewhat common, but if you do not live in a slum you almost certainly won't end up raped or killed.

Going on a tangent, it is nice to see another fellow brazilian hanging around UR. Brazil is yet another textbook example of democracy gone wrong, and several themes that Mencius has written about. From Pedro II to Lula da Silva in barely over a hundred years.

October 22, 2009 at 9:10 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

James, a minor point --

Having the same penalty for minor (unarmed theft) and major (murder) offenses can create perverse incentives. A thief who is witnessed then has an incentive to kill the witness, since the penalty is no greater.

Better to save capital punishment for murderers and rapists, and grade it down from there to caning or jail terms or something for the pickpockets and litterers.

October 23, 2009 at 1:16 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just because the death penalty is a "very terrible punishment" doesn't mean that worse punishments cannot be invented to retain an incentive structure that makes murdering witnesses *less* rather than more likely.

The problem is that punishments "worse than the death penalty" lead one into areas like torturing criminals or punishing their family and friends for being the family and friends of a criminal.

Punishment regimes like this are almost as horrifying as racism to people who are committed to being sympathetically disposed to "humans in general". I think this is part of what Mencious meant when he qualified his request for comments with the quibble about not "becoming a Nazi".

The circumstances in SA (if the situation on the ground is as dire as Mencious portrays it with the quotes he selected) seems to call for extreme measures, but extreme measures require a calloused heart to put into effect. To "go there" you have to be the kind of person who can shoot the dog you love when it gets sick. The kind of person who buys health insurance for their poodle isn't up for extreme measures.

Most people (thankfully in my opinion) never think of torture as having a useful place in a criminal incentive system. Contemplating it seriously is "a Nazi move".

I think this is where Mencious's crazy cryptographic-machine-gun ideas arise. He doesn't want to grasp the nettle and see that the primary thing is the *will* to do arbitrarily horrible things to achieve a goal. The Tokugawa shogunate implemented a police state that lasted about two centuries despite very low technology. The thing they brought to the table we lack was a willingness to do things like killing entire families for the disloyalty of a single member.

Look at media like "Apocalypse Now". It was about the way power flows out of will and what kind of culture that creates. And the movie which was a re-tread of the same themes from "Heart of Darkness". And that was about (wait for it...) white people turning into moral monsters while trying to clear a profit while governing the Belgian Congo.

I agree with Mencious about some of democracy's problems (like when people at the top eat their own dog food and go soft in the head). I don't think Mencious has thought quite as deeply about solutions that would be cheap, effective, and non-horrible.

My impression is that his "Pentagon" (mixed with a little of Chomsky's manufacturing consent to give it some teeth - call it the "Hexagon" all bundled together?) is a reasonably good implementation of a moral-ish, effective-ish, cheap-ish solution to the problem of running a government that lets people feel heard, feel virtuous, without letting them drive, while reducing problems associated with succession struggles and manic leaders getting hopped up on serotonin.

October 28, 2009 at 8:43 PM  
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October 31, 2009 at 10:54 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

One reads this post and scratches one's head.

What does Mr. Moldbug mean by "Nazi," for instance?

Western Civilization is notably tender-hearted and that will, I think, be our undoing in the long run. We look at IQ-55 kaffirs and think that they could be just like us, if only we gave them more money, if only our evil ancestors hadn't done whatever unspeakable thing the revisionists are accusing them of this week.

We must--and when I say "we," I mean those Whites and East Asians whose problem this has become, not only in sub-Saharan Africa but also in the Americas as well. The same thing would likely have happened had she gone among the kaffirs in the ruins of Detroit. How many thousand Biancas are raped and murdered by these subhuman apes each week?

We must look upon the kaffir and see him as he is, not as the televitz tells us he must be.

And if this makes us "Nazis," if this makes us "racists," "bigots," "fascists," or whatever other meaningless, empty curse word the Jennies and CrystalClears of the world throw at us, because they were taught to view the world this way by the televitz, so be it. The race war is already in progress and has been going on for some time, and we can deny it, and bare our throats to Dayshawn's knife, as pretty, idealistic, stupid young Bianca did, or we can look at the world as it is without flinching, and begin our reasoning from a position of objective reality and not infantile fantasies.

As the man says, "I have become what I beheld, and am content that I have done right."

November 9, 2009 at 2:37 PM  

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