Friday, October 9, 2009 45 Comments

Robert Lowell on the Obama prize

"But who believed this? Who could understand?"

As a literary man I was reminded immediately of Robert Lowell's Beyond the Alps. This is from Life Studies (1959), arguably both the best and most approachable of Lowell's books:

Beyond the Alps

(On the train from Rome to Paris. 1950, the year Pius XII defined the dogma of Mary's bodily assumption.)

Reading how even the Swiss had thrown the sponge
in once again and Everest was still
unscaled, I watched our Paris pullman lunge
mooning across the fallow Alpine snow.
O bella Roma! I saw our stewards go
forward on tiptoe banging on their gongs.
Life changed to landscape. Much against my will
I left the City of God where it belongs.
There the skirt-mad Mussolini unfurled
the eagle of Caesar. He was one of us
only, pure prose. I envy the conspicuous
waste of our grandparents on their grand tours -
long-haired Victorian sages accepted the universe,
while breezing on their trust funds through the world.

When the Vatican made Mary's Assumption dogma,
the crowds at San Pietro screamed Papa.
The Holy Father dropped his shaving glass,
and listened. His electric razor purred,
his pet canary chirped on his left hand.
The lights of science couldn't hold a candle
to Mary risen - at one miraculous stroke,
angel-winged, gorgeous as a jungle bird!
But who believed this? Who could understand?
Pilgrims still kissed Saint Peter's brazen sandal.
The Duce's lynched, bare, booted skull still spoke.
God herded his people to the coup de grace -
the costumed Switzers sloped their pikes to push,
O Pius, through the monstrous human crush...

Our mountain-climbing train had come to earth.
Tired of the querulous hush-hush of the wheels,
the blear-eyed ego kicking in my berth
lay still, and saw Apollo plant his heels
on terra firma through the morning's thigh...
each backward, wasted Alp, a Parthenon,
fire-branded socket of the Cyclops' eye.
There were no tickets for that altitude
once held by Hellas, when the Goddess stood,
prince, pope, philosopher and golden bough,
pure mind and murder at the scything prow -
Minerva, the miscarriage of the brain.

Now Paris, our black classic, breaking up
like killer kings on an Etruscan cup.

(As Dexter Gordon says to the Frenchman in Round Midnight, "Lot of that goin' around these days." Well, no, actually, there isn't.)

To Americans who wonder how anyone could be so tone-deaf as to pull a stunt like this, it has nothing at all to do with the person, Barack Obama. Probably you can blame the Obama White House for not (a) knowing that this was going to happen, and (b) having the sense to prevent it from happening. And the ultimate diagnosis, of course, is American. But today's symptom is most definitely European.

The problem is that Americans, even progressives, are the people in the world who adore Obama the least. Normally it is advantageous, for continuity purposes, that Europeans love Obama. But it is not advantageous that they love him so much. It is weird, distracting and confusing. In short: off message.

This strange European affection is easily explained. You see, there was once an agency named the Office of War Information, which was more or less the pro-Roosevelt press organized as a government agency. OWI no longer exists, but not because it fell from favor; some of its people went to CIA, some went to State, some went back to pretending to be ordinary citizens. OWI is essentially the bureaucratic ancestor of the "mainstream media" as we know it today.

After the unfortunate events of 1941-45, the surviving Continental friends of these gentlemen were organized into a new industry, the official media of Europe. Even in Britain, those loyal to the new military configuration of the planet were praised and petted, and reproduced intellectually; those who were not so sure grew old, had no students, declined and died. Europe is a Darwinian paradise of information, all adapted to military events. You can be sure that had things gone otherwise, the grandchildren of Celine, Brasillach and Drieu la Rochelle would constitute "European public opinion."

So the problem is: Europe is gaga for Obama not because the wise Europeans, with their centuries of history, raw-milk cheeses and infinitely subtle wines, have deliberated long on the subject, gazed into their crystal balls and detected the promise and meaning of Obama. Europe is gaga for Obama because Europe, as we now know it, is a propaganda colony of Washington. The pre-1940 Europe is of historical interest only, like the Aztecs.

But this is not the Warsaw Pact. Nothing in this relationship is coordinated or hierarchical; Europe is gaga for Obama not because Washington sends it instructions to go gaga for Obama; Europe is gaga for Obama because it truly loves Obama. It wants to love Obama.

In fact, we can see this perfectly in the Nobel episode, because no White House flack in his right mind would have ever asked for this. No State Department would have lobbied for it. If, as some believe, Obama is just a front for the Jews - the Jews are horrified. This ridiculous thing will be a millstone around the administration's neck for the next three years. Whoever did it cannot have been acting under any sort of instructions.

The Eurocrats who manufacture European public opinion, in the context of a political system almost perfectly insulated from democracy, and an information system which only sometimes tolerates anti-government newspapers and never radio or TV, feel (foolishly) that it is right and good and true to treat Obama as Brezhnev. Americans, thanks to their less sterile environment, are not yet that far around the bend.

Note that this matches a Soviet pattern: the fulsome, comical homage to the Leader is always the most fulsome and comical in the most remote provinces. Reason: the more remote you are, the harder you have to work to move the center.

To see how this works in practice, consider the mind of a random Eurocrat. Let's call him Philippe, a producer of short documentary films for France 5. Pierre is Philippe of the many tiny, toiling cogs who make European public opinion what it is. Like all such cogs, he is constantly terrified that his life is meaningless and has no real impact on anything. Since this terror is more or less accurate, it has a strong hold on him. Therefore, he strives ever more fanatically in his work to enlighten the public, agitate them, stir them up and cause them to act. He thus adds his tiny dribble, a half-hour every year or two, to the great river of Aufklärung that flows into the eyes and ears of Frenchmen.

There's a big problem, however. The problem is that Washington is the capital of the world. Producers of short documentary films are powerful because the public watches short documentary films - at least, in theory - and public opinion is powerful. Public opinion is powerful because people vote. But, due to various historical unfairnesses which will no doubt in time be corrected, Frenchmen do not get to vote in American elections. And Philippe makes short documentary films for Frenchmen. How, then, will he find his impact?

The answer is: he will cause Frenchmen to have strong opinions about American politics. An issue which, under normal circumstances, would interest them only slightly more than sewage treatment in the watershed of the Irrawaddy. For the impact, he will rely on the well-known force of peer pressure. As we all learned in middle school, it is much more fun to jump off a bridge if your friends jump with you. Much of democracy is based on this principle.

And so, a year ago when I asked the wife of a friend, a perfectly decent person with no more real interest in politics than in Irrawaddy waste management, why she liked Obama, she replied - I forget the words - that Obama would change America's image. Or some other cliche, well known to mean international public opinion. Which, you will note, Americans are constantly kept well-informed of. Although, under normal circumstances, etc. (Question: does anyone make a living by informing Europeans what American public opinion thinks of them?)

So this is why Obamolatry approaches North Korean levels in Europe, but is relatively restrained on this side of the pond. In Europe, it has no natural enemies, and it has a much harder job to do. Since Europeans can only influence American politics indirectly, through peer pressure, their opinions on American politics have to be much more intense.

And since they are, after all, in Europe, they are nobly unconstrained by any direct contact with the reality. Minerva, the miscarriage of the brain! This one will take a long time to live down.

45 Comments:

Blogger KevinV said...

I'm trying to imagine a Europe ruled by the grandchildren of Brasillach and Drieu la Rochelle and find myself thinking: What a different world this would be!

btw, and TOTALLY off topic, have you noticed that Jefferson Davis' writings make constant references to the US Constitution. Even in rebellion, the holy document had to be the justification!

October 9, 2009 at 11:58 AM  
Blogger TGGP said...

Ugh, more poetry. Can't be bothered to try to glean any message from it.

Is the Nobel Prize really reflective of European public opinion generally? From what I've heard, Europeans are about as favorable towards the death penalty as Americans, but I'd bet the Peace Prize would be more likely to fall on an anti death penalty advocate.

I wouldn't say Obama is liked least in the United States (I read my Larison, you know). Europe does not comprise the whole rest of the world. The DNC has recently lambasted the Republicans for "throwing in their hat with terrorists" because the Taliban and HAMAS also booed Obama's prize. Jimmy Carter was unpopular in the United States (to a much greater degree than Obama yet is) but he was burned in effigy abroad.

October 9, 2009 at 12:56 PM  
OpenID baduin said...

Mencius Moldbug, for probably patriotic reasons, continues to believe that Progressivism is an American invention. It is not. Americans have a lot of good points, but intellectual inventiveness is not one of them. Their victory make one of the European-produced varieties of Progressivism dominant - and only for a time.


There are many kinds of Progressivism. The managed-democracy, eugenicist, welfare-state, science-worshipping Progressivism of Roosevelt and Wells (also not in the least American invention) which won the Second World War is nearly dead today.

Ironically, it happened mostly because it was TOO similar to Hitler (read Wells's Mankind in the Making). It had no chance against the Frankfurt School.

As for the rest, the analysis is spot on. The Parliament of Norway wants impact in Washington, and the Nobel Prize is the only tool they have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Peace_Prize

"Question: does anyone make a living by informing Europeans what American public opinion thinks of them?"

Answer: At least in the Eastern Europe, there is a lot of demand for information what the international public opinion thinks about them - a typical syndrom of peripheries - and there is a lot of mass-media which make it their business to transfer or more often manufacture such Western opinions.

October 9, 2009 at 1:05 PM  
Blogger Zimri said...

I wrote up an essay about Barry's Nobel, inspired by this piece, at littlegreenfootballs2. (Not to be confused with the Lizard Cult.) I was also "inspired" by Erickson at RedState who cited affirmative-action, again. But you don't want to hear about blog wars so I'll spare you all that.

Here's the excerpt relevant here...

The Nobel committee’s decision is an afterclap of the reconstruction of Norway after 1945. According to this site, British agents were in deep with the resistance. When the Germans surrendered in Norway, British forces under General Sir Andrew Thorne occupied the place. Under Thorne, and then under the 20-year reign of the indigenous Labour-Party under Einar Gerhardsen, Britain and Britain’s Norse allies drove the Nazi-aligned elite of old Norway into extinction. They remade Norway into a Progressive nation.

Norway has a new elite now, which exploits national guilt for its collaboration with the Nazis – which went far beyond that of allied Finland and even occupied Denmark. This elite has relentlessly (if peacefully) continued its purge of anything remotely right-wing.

I believe that reconstructing Norway was a necessary act, and I’m glad my countrymen helped do it. Unfortunately handing over Scandinavian nations to progressives cost us in the Cold War: Gerhardsen wouldn’t let NATO keep military bases in Norway, for instance.

October 9, 2009 at 1:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Utter nonsense. What else is there to say? You have obviously never even set foot outside the USA.

October 9, 2009 at 1:26 PM  
Blogger Zimri said...

Excuse me, Mr Anonymous of the impeccable Euro credentials - but I went to school in Britain and I took a GCSE in 20th century history. And I've spent some time in Portugal as well. Other countries visited: Switzerland and France, and Israel ought to count as a postwar creation as well.

If you say "rubbish" then it's up to you to back it up. Your post doesn't even rise to the level of dick-waving.

October 9, 2009 at 1:38 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually, I can post a video of me waving my dick, if that helps. It is quite an impressive sight, I am told!

October 9, 2009 at 1:41 PM  
Anonymous pwyll said...

Looks like there's one typo - I'm guessing the line "Pierre is Philippe of the many tiny, toiling cogs..." should read "Philippe is one of the many tiny, toiling cogs...".

October 9, 2009 at 4:54 PM  
Blogger Studd Beefpile said...

MM forgets Obama's narcissism. I have no doubt he knew this was going to happen, and no doubt he could have refused it quietly (though with an appropriate level of leaking, so everyone would know how humble he was). Having his refusal of the award as an open secret would have been far more valuable than accepting the prize would be, but like most politicians, he has come to believe his own nonsense. He could no more refuse it than a 5 year old could refuse candy.

October 9, 2009 at 5:26 PM  
Blogger G. M. Palmer said...

TGGP,

Please kill yourself (at least in the online sense). Seriously. You're a boring, self-loathing, former theist with nothing better to do than spout bad opinions with decent-to-flawed logic. You used to have interesting things to say. I'm not sure what happened but the TGGP of the last year or so is less than pleasant.

MM,

I'd forgotten how sadly funny Lowell could be. A damn fine poem for sure.

Baduin,

MM has clearly explained why progressivism is a Protestant phenomenon (and ultimately a natural phenomenon that wasn't able to take permanent hold until after the Protestant reformation) and that the US is its utmost expression -- so much that USG has made the world its own echo-chamber.

What have you done, apart from bitch?

Zimri -- don't feed the trolls, especially the nameless ones.

Studd -- I tend to agree with you but MM is right about what I find more important (and have been saying since I found out at like 7 this morning) -- this will be an albatross. When I posted the insanity on FB this afternoon, I got approvals and lulz etc from all of my college-town uber-liberal friends. If even they think this is overstepping, Obama has lost the last of his magic.

The next 3 years will be painful for all involved.

October 9, 2009 at 7:54 PM  
Anonymous blue anonymous said...

This is a nice essay yet it shows MM's weaknesses. Ascertainment is not his strongest suit. The Studd-Palmer hypothesis that this was pre-approved by the president is more believable than what MM presents and is a strong possibility at any rate. The whole logic of the essay is thus partially unraveled. And yet it still seems to have truth to it.

TGGP,
Please post more often

October 9, 2009 at 8:18 PM  
Anonymous Sprague said...

Palmer,

TGGP at least has something substantial to say most of the time and is willing to challenge Moldbug.

You're just a mindless sycophant whose comments almost exclusively consist of sucking up to Moldbug. You're a Mencius Moldbug fanboy who swallows everything MM writes so you simply can't bear to see a commenter like TGGP actually question or challenge MM's assertions.

You're an old man and it shows. TGGP's mind is much sharper than yours.

We need more commenters like TGGP, and fewer ones like you that just regurgitate what Moldbug has already said.

October 9, 2009 at 8:25 PM  
Blogger G. M. Palmer said...

Sprague -- Cally?

Anyway, suck it. You're starting to sound like someone who believes in bullshit like "beta males" with all your fan boy talk.

TGGP has lost his shit in the last year and a half. I daresay we've all slipped. MM at least has the new parenthood to excuse a bit of it. What's TGGPs? What's yours oh lurker who makes himself feel better by being a TGGP fan boy to use your own parlance?

October 9, 2009 at 8:34 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Seeing that old faggot G.M. Palmer on this thread reminds me.

The documentary “Zoo” is available on YouTube.

It’s about Kenneth Pinyan aka “Mr. Hands” who was a Boeing engineer who engaged in receptive anal sex with full-size stallions at a farm in Washington state. He videotaped those sex acts and distributed them informally under the name “Mr. Hands.” The videotaped sex acts are available online.

During a July 2005 sex act, videotaped by a friend, he suffered a perforated colon and later died of his injuries.

October 9, 2009 at 8:43 PM  
Blogger G. M. Palmer said...

Awesome. I tell TGGP to get fucked and the crazies come out.

Dear Mencius, mea culpa, canis. Didn't know I spread the crazy like those bugcatchers someone was talking about.

The rest of you, get bent.

October 9, 2009 at 8:55 PM  
Blogger Malchus X said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

October 9, 2009 at 9:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

G.M. Palmer,

There's some good video footage of you and Mencius here.

I'll leave it to you to figure out who the cricket is and who the worm is supposed to be.

October 9, 2009 at 9:38 PM  
Blogger G. M. Palmer said...

Bullshit Jargon Bullshit Bullshit Dawkins Bullshit Jargon.

Why are you still talking? Meh. Whatever. It's nearly 1 am and I have a piano to move in the morning.

October 9, 2009 at 9:53 PM  
Blogger Malchus X said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

October 9, 2009 at 10:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Palmer & Malchus,

Great arguments guys.

Palmer,

Be a good shabbos goy and hand over your daughter to Rabbi Mencius so he can assfuck her. Rabbi Mencius will then tell you about the secret knowledge and give you secret key to understanding history.

And why the fuck are you still talking? You should be memorizing the UR archive while Rabbi Mencius assfucks your daughter, just like the good Rabbi Mencius ordered you to.

October 9, 2009 at 10:08 PM  
Blogger Malchus X said...

Be a good shabbos goy

I'd be delighted to comply! But I don't think Mencius in particular - or any organized set of Jews in general - would have me.

You see, this is what the world would really look like, in racial/ethnic terms, if every single theory of Aryan National Socialism were perfectly, physically, genetically true (listing the superior races from top to bottom):

1. Jews

2. East Asians

3. Non-hispanic Whites, more or less, with plenty of outliers.

4(a). Amer-Indians

4(b). Hispanic Whites with some outliers well above the mean of #3 & 4.

5. Everyone else human breathing Homo Sapien air.

By every discernible measurement known to science and man since about forever, Jews are the Master Race. Hitler's Germans were pretty awesome, but if Hitler had been intellectually honest about his beliefs he would've rocked the Star of David, and flown the Swastika beneath it in deference to the most pristine example of eugenics-as-destiny current on the globe for all of recorded human history.

Alas...

And it's somewhat, though not entirely, to their credit that they have spent hundreds of years fervently denying it, while suffering the consequences of it.

To be #1 is always to be hated for something - sheer envy is what animates, and has always animated, anti-semitism from Himmler to some "anonymous" commentator posting silliness on MM's blog, period. And everything similar to it in between.

You should be memorizing the UR archive while Rabbi Mencius..

Heh.

October 9, 2009 at 11:06 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Not a supremacist, but a separatist.

I agree, Jews are wonderful. They should be left alone - and they should leave others alone.

Though you seem to ignore the fact that the Ashkenazim owe their "superiority" to having had the privilege of co-evolving with Europeans, at great expense to Europeans. Parasites co-evolving with their host. Without a host, the parasites die.

Without this privilege they would've been just like their slower brothers outside of Europe; depraved all the same but without the verbal dexterity and intelligence to memetically control and persuade dimwitted poetry fags like Palmer with elaborate and impressive argumentation that some magical disembodied, unstoppable religious meme is the primary actor in history.

And if you're going to try to bring up all the great things the Jews did that "helped" Europe and Europeans, then be fair and evenhanded about it and don't neglect negative accounting.

Just go and watch the video of the cricket and the worm linked to above. Arguing with someone like Palmer is like trying to argue with the cricket.

October 10, 2009 at 12:14 AM  
Blogger TGGP said...

baduin:
Have you heard of Daniel Flynn's "Conservative History of the American Left"? He distinguishes between a more American "freedom left" of Hawthorne's proto-hippie communes and a "force left" of European (particularly Marxist) origin. I'll note that Sweden, the idol of progressives everywhere now, was particularly enthusiastic for eugenics. Joseph Hertzlinger has discussed eugenics as a counter to Mencius' theory of history and left vs right, but I think Sweden is also interesting because it was neutral and never occupied during WW2. There is an indigenous liberalism in Europe that was more advanced than what was in America before the war. Ed Glaeser discusses that in Why Doesn't the U.S. Have a European-Style Welfare State? It also seems to me that Italy & Austria both have stronger far-right movements then countries which were never occuppied. It's also my impression that Spain, Portugal & Greece, which all had right-wing dictatorships after the war, seem relatively leftist today, though I could be focusing too much on recent elections.

I'll add that Israel was founded by progressives (labor Zionists, Noam Chomsky was one such kibbutznik), and in its early years supported by liberals (and the Soviet Union) while conservatives gave it the cold shoulder. So when Mencius was proclaiming a few posts back that it was America which was holding Israel back from taking the necessary actions, he was again overstating the importance/influnce of the U.S and neglecting the internal politics of other countries (though I'll agree that the weird relationship between the countries means Israeli pols kick the can down the road and waste time with the U.S), as well as overstating the fixed nature of left/right divisions.


Zimri:
I never payed much attention to LGF (though years back I read Jihad Watch fairly regularly). From browsing LGF2 I can't tell whether it's pro-Creationist or anti. What's the site about?


G. M. Palmer:
Sorry, but no change is in the immediate offering. There are some people whose advice carries weight with me, but I don't care for poetry so you are not one of them. I admit I was once a theist, but that was a while back, I think before this blog started. I don't recall mentioning my former theism any time recently and I have no idea where you're getting the self-loathing bit from. I loate other people, sure, but I'm in my good book.

I will concede that my output here is of lower quality than it used to be. Some reasons: work and other distractions mean I put less time and thought into it. Secondly, what I'm responding has also changed.

I tend to view progressivism and Protestantism as both related to urbanization. Protestantism is also closely related to the decline of the international Catholic order (along with empires likes the Habsburgs) and rise of nationalism. Progressivism is now associated with anti or trans nationalism. More backward (generally not Protestant) countries which didn't develop their own ideologies adapted to modern urbanism tend to be afflicted with the worst form of progressivism, communism (which some may argue predates Protestantism), when modernity hit. Again, Ed Glaeser & Yuri Slezkine give good accounts.

The disgusted reaction of American liberals jibes with what I've also observed. It's just patently ridiculous.

October 10, 2009 at 12:24 AM  
Blogger TGGP said...

blue anonymous:
I think Nobel prizes are in general pretty closed secrets. That's why people have a hard time predicting them. Prediction markets don't do so well either (I'd like to some relevant posts at Midas Oracle, but the site doesn't seem to be up now). CIA backed coups can actually be observed to affect the stock market in advance though. Do you guys think Obama also had advance knowledge about the decision the IOC was going to make?


What's "Cally"? California? Is there some history between Sprague and G. M. Palmer on a different site or something?

In case anyone cares, I move that faggot and dick material remain at middle school. All in favor are encouraged to say aye.


Malchus X:
I've been critical of MM from about the beginning, and we've been arguing about statistics since long before that thread. I've gotten more critical over time, but I would put the inflection point around when MM stopped participating in the comments section.

It's common for imbeciles on the internet to assume anyone who disagrees with them must be a sock-puppet. It's the modern version of "false consciousness", people can't really disagree with you, so their disagreement isn't real or they themselves aren't. I recommend you ask Mencius to confirm whether sock-puppetry is occurring. Then once he gets back to you, write up a big mea culpa for everyone to see, and pause to reconsider before you next make your favorite accusation.


All the commenters with the JOO thing: Where the hell are you getting this idea that Jews are out-fucking the goyim? Ashkenazi Jews are doing a terrible job of reproducing themselves (both in terms of genes and social identification). It seems like they're being devastated by whatever parasitic meme you're worried about, not benefitting from it. Anonymous is presumably being figurative, if he's got something to say I recommend he say it straight, but maybe that's just my insufficient appreciation for poetry. For those who do like poetry, bona-fide homo IOZ has one on Obama's prize here.

October 10, 2009 at 12:24 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Where the hell are you getting this idea that Jews are out-fucking the goyim? Ashkenazi Jews are doing a terrible job of reproducing themselves

Never said that.

Parasites generally don't out-produce and overwhelm their hosts reproductively. Those that do end up having to "jumping ship" down the line or go down with their hosts.

Organisms are adaption executors, not fitness maximizers.

October 10, 2009 at 1:24 AM  
Blogger nazgulnarsil said...

and retards claim another blog's comment section. entropy I suppose. really wish Michael S. had a blog.

October 10, 2009 at 1:59 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/oct/08/communism-university-workplace-occupations

October 10, 2009 at 3:28 AM  
Blogger newt0311 said...

@Studd, Palmer, TGGP

It seems like the first two of you are right. From the information here: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/09/us/politics/09obama-text.html?_r=1, it seems like O has already accepted (or has he?). I have no idea if the above link is a joke or not but this entire affair seems like something that one would see in a satire. Makes it very difficult to reason about it.

October 10, 2009 at 8:37 AM  
Blogger Malchus X said...

@TGGP

"It's common for imbeciles on the internet to assume anyone who disagrees with them must be a sock-puppet"

1. I don't really recall "disagreeing" with you about anything, to be honest. Your posts tend - though not always - to be hyper-nitpicks of whatever content has been posted here any given week, at least since I've been reading this blog. Of the sort that gets really tedious really quickly (made-up illustrative demo below):

Poster X: "that's like denying that the sun rises in the east." TGGP: "well, technically, the sun does not rise in the east, the earth rotates on its axis and..."

2. But, and more importantly, you know what? You're right: I haven't the slightest idea who is posting under any given moniker, and what's more, I don't really care. I find it passing strange what comes out of the woodwork to defend, damn, or praise certain regular posters at times, but you are correct that my accusation of sockpuppetry is just that: an unsubstatntiated accustation.

I'm just glad I'm not having to hear from you any longer about how one idle - and gentle! - reproof of the Greatest Mind That Ever Posted At UR drove that savant to take his genius marbles and go home. Besides being untrue, that got tiresome.

"I've been critical of MM from about the beginning,"

But your criticism used to be largely confined to what I stated above - stuff like pointing out this Viceroy during the Raj was a Lord, not a Duke, things like that. It usually came wrapped in a swaddle of opinonated verbiage, so it tended to look like some devastating critique of whatever point was being made by the author of this blog. That is, until closer examination.

But lately you have veered into criticizing irrelevancies, like who posts in the comments sections of this blog, and pining for some Golden Age of UR Commentators. And calling folks you disagree with imbeciles. That is not, to use one of your own favorite themes, a constructive use of your keyboard presence.

In any event, have a nice day. I've got a football game to attend and beer to drink, just like the Prole at heart I really am.

Later all.

October 10, 2009 at 9:02 AM  
Anonymous m said...

Wow, I've read through this thread, and none of you have had anything substantive to say except TGGP. I hope Mencius changes the style and excecution of his writing, and starts participating in comments again. This is drivel.

October 10, 2009 at 12:17 PM  
Blogger Alrenous said...

So, is complaining about the poor commenters a substantive comment?


If you want to go beyond 'entropy' for an explanation for comment decay, check the ratio of original ideas to posts for me. For example, this one was probably written in a post-viral fugue, and seems to have encouraged certain...'people'...

I think my favourite post remains the first one, which was definitely chock-full of things I'd never seen before.


baduin,

Mencius believes no such thing. I don't blame you for not reading the entire archives, but none of this was new to me when I first read it - it was all Mencius, and I remember thinking Mr. Kinsella could benefit by taking the train of thought as far as Mencius does. It was pure independent corroboration for me. (The second corroborator I found, incidentally.)


I daresay we've all slipped.

I've improved, so fuck all you guys. And yes, I do have objective measures, thank you very much.

October 10, 2009 at 3:11 PM  
Anonymous Schutzstaffel said...

All the commenters with the JOO thing: Where the hell are you getting this idea that Jews are out-fucking the goyim?

They got it from this lying fruitcake and quack "psychologist"

October 10, 2009 at 6:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

All the commenters with the JOO thing: Where the hell are you getting this idea that Jews are out-fucking the goyim?



They got it from this lying fruitcake and quack "psychologist"


I never claimed that "Jews are out-fucking the goyim." Jews have never out-fucked the goyim throughout their diaspora among their various hosts.

I'll repeat what I said to TGGP above: Parasites generally don't out-produce and overwhelm their hosts reproductively. Those that do end up having to "jumping ship" down the line or go down with their hosts. Organisms are adaption executors, not fitness maximizers.

If you're going to link to bloggers, link to someone more credible than a dissimulator like "Guy White", whose sole purpose is to cater to Jews.

And you know what's really quackery? Arguing that a magical, disembodied, unstoppable religious meme is the primary actor in history.

October 10, 2009 at 7:59 PM  
OpenID baduin said...

Alrenous:

There are a few important points to keep in mind:

1) Mencius himself is a pretty typical Progressive. His "global happiness by corporate tyranny and cryptographic security" is an extremely typical Progressive scheme, quite similar to various Anarcho-Capitalists, Phalansterists and Sea-Steaders.

2) New varieties of Progressivism generally start as a protest against progressivism. Luther started by protesting against the Progressivism of Rome. Unfortunately, the natural tendency is always for the protesters against progressivism to end as a more radical progressivists than those they protested against.

http://www.leaderu.com/theology/augpelagius.html

3) Progressivism is not bad, but good. It is responsible for the enormous actual progress in the West, and the difference between the West and other civilisations. Unfortunately, there is a slight problem with the Progressivism. It always ends trying to construct an artificial mechanical utopia, which does not take into account the whole reality, but only a partial model of it.
In the end, each such attempt to create an utopia ends in disaster.

4) Germany was never entirely Western as regards is government system. From the Unification in 1871 to 1918, German political system was based on obedience and discipline, not freedom and brotherhood. It assumed the necessity of omnipotent and holy state authority to keep the people obeying the law, etc.

Georg von Below
"Die Erlebnisse des Ersten Weltkriegs haben den Zusammenbruch der Ideale
der französischen Revolution dargetan. Die Ideen der
Freiheit, Gleichheit, Brüderlichkeit sind durch die deutschen Ideen von 1914, Plicht, Ordnung, Gerechtigkeit überwunden."
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideen_von_1914
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderweg

Such things sound -and are - reasonable. Unfortunately, in practice the omnipotent holy state works much worse than the Western limited systems. The problem with the West is not benevolence, but wishful thinking and utopianism.

Unfortunately, the various "Realists" generally get rid of benevolence, and replace it by even more wishful thinking and utopia.

As it happens, we know fairly well the results of such an approach. Many of the non-Western states attempted to build Western-style utopias. They wanted Utopia even more than the West, and were prepared to be much more ruthless in achieving it.

October 11, 2009 at 3:16 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Lowest quality UR comment thread EVER.

Shame on all of you.

October 11, 2009 at 6:58 PM  
Blogger TGGP said...

Malchus X:
4(a). Amer-Indians

4(b). Hispanic Whites

Shouldn't that be the other way around?

5. Everyone else human breathing Homo Sapien air.
I think Australian Aborigines should be distinguished as being among the least intelligent. The Khoi-San are also apparently siginficantly less intelligent than their neighbors in sub-Saharan Africa (though the Capre Coloureds are another story). I don't know about the pygmies, but I imagine they're similar.

And it's somewhat, though not entirely, to their credit that they have spent hundreds of years fervently denying it
I don't think so, Steve Pinker and William Saletan are both up front about it today. If you read Yuri Slezkine's "The Jewish Century" you'll see that there was general agreement between gentiles and Jews on the matter, they just give different connotations to the traits they ascribed to each other.

To be #1 is always to be hated for something - sheer envy is what animates, and has always animated, anti-semitism
Envy has certainly been a factor, but Jews have been plenty disliked back when they had low status. The Robber's Cave experiment shows how group hatred can be based on nothing at all, and here it wasn't the case that there's nothing at all. Groups prided themselves on differences they actually had. Who wants to be an elephant and all that.


Anonymous October 10, 2009 12:14 AM:
First, choose a nym so we can distinguish you from every other yahoo that just goes by "Anonymous".

Not a supremacist, but a separatist.
What do you think of Michael H. Hart's separatist proposal? It's among the more sensible ones I've heard off, though I still don't think it fine-grained enough. I say just go for the whole hog of panarchy.

Though you seem to ignore the fact that the Ashkenazim owe their "superiority" to having had the privilege of co-evolving with Europeans, at great expense to Europeans.
I think Greg Cochran makes a good case that their IQ is a response to the employment restrictions of the ghetto. I deny that it was to the expense of Europeans, rather they served an important economic role that lefties still don't understand. A number of governments have failed to understand that role and expelled such middlemen minorities, it never turns out well.

Without a host, the parasites die.
That's funny, because in this reality there's a country called Israel with a first-world standard of living and a vastly disproportionate number of Nobel prizes in the hard sciences.

Without this privilege they would've been just like their slower brothers outside of Europe; depraved all the same but without the verbal dexterity and intelligence
Sephardic Jews have an IQ advantage over their neighbors similar to what the Ashkenazi have over Europeans. It just happens that's a lower bar to clear down there.

Arguing with someone like Palmer is like trying to argue with the cricket.
Obviously false consciousness due to his bourgeois background.

Parasites generally don't out-produce and overwhelm their hosts reproductively.
True, but they increase their own fitness and in the process lower the fitness of their host (if their host's fitness was not decreased, they'd be symbiotes). As far as I can see, Ashkenazi Jews have taken a greater fitness hit than gentiles of European descent.


nazgulnarsil:
really wish Michael S. had a blog.
I've been saying that for some time. He can get pretty long-winded, even in his comments at mtraven's blog, which almost nobody reads. It's high time he started blogging.


newto311:
Is that evidence because he accepts the award? Or do you think it indicates he knew in advance?

October 11, 2009 at 8:23 PM  
Blogger TGGP said...

Malchus X:
I don't really recall "disagreeing" with you about anything, to be honest.
I was thinking back to the previous time you accused people of being sock-puppets. I agree that I nitpick. The devil is in the details, and one can always strive for more accuracy.

what's more, I don't really care
Plenty of people don't care. Those people don't make it a point to bring up the subject.

I'm just glad I'm not having to hear from you any longer
You're leaving? Don't let the door hit you and so on.

But your criticism used to be largely confined to what I stated above
I still engage in nitpicking, but the link about being critical from years back I posted earlier was not such, but an overall (unsubstantiated even) dismissal of MM's pretensions.

That is, until closer examination.
Zing!

irrelevancies, like who posts in the comments sections of this blog, and pining for some Golden Age of UR Commentators.
Recall again when I linked to an older post in which MM boasted of having the smartest commenters on the internet. I'd like to think the decline is obvious. Furthermore, the whole point behind the blog is to attract readers of the highest quality rathe than (as typical on the internet) quantity. So the decline is real, significant, and works against the purported goal of the blog.

And calling folks you disagree with imbeciles
I was not calling the anonymous anti-semite above a leftie. It was a "you don't want to be like them, do you?" sort of comment. I'll remain agnostic on whether you yourself are an imbecile.

October 11, 2009 at 8:23 PM  
Blogger TGGP said...

Alrenous:
So, is complaining about the poor commenters a substantive comment?
There's been a mix of substantive and insubstantive. Here's a summary of points I've made not about the quality of comments:
The Nobel Prizes and elite European opinion are distinct from public opinion in Europe generally. The most anti-Obama countries are neither American nor European. Occupation in WW2 is a poor explanation for European progressivism because Europe was already more progressive than the U.S, and differences in which countries were occuppied do not correlate with which European countries are more progressive. Both progressive and "Protestant" ideas are ideological superstructures (to steal a Marxist phrase) over an underlying material basis, modern urbanism. Nobel Prizes are often surprises, so the recipients (Obama in particular) probably don't know in advance. Ashkenazi Jews are not benefitting from the ills of modernity at the expense of white gentiles, rather (as exemplary moderns) they are taking an even greater fitness hit.

If you want to go beyond 'entropy' for an explanation for comment decay, check the ratio of original ideas to posts for me
I agree.

I've improved, so fuck all you guys. And yes, I do have objective measures, thank you very much.
It would be dishonest to say I laughed out loud, but I did crack a grin at that one.


Anonymous October 10, 2009 7:59 PM:
Evidently you're the same anonymous from above, so start using a handle. Rather than repeat my point about greater fitness reduction among Jews, I'll just agree with you that from what I can tell Guy White is not very reliable. Which is not to say Kevin MacDonald is either.


baduin:
Progressivism is not bad, but good. It is responsible for the enormous actual progress in the West, and the difference between the West and other civilisations.
I'd say it's more an epiphenomenon. Apolitical technological advance and/or the Malthusian evolution described in Greg Clark's "A Farewell to Alms" seems the more likely culprit, historically they lashed out at the greatest thing that ever happened to mankind. For "actual progress" without Progressivism, see Singapore.

October 11, 2009 at 8:23 PM  
Blogger Alrenous said...

baduin,

1) Mencius himself is a pretty typical Progressive.

The word you're looking for is 'utopian,' definitely a common feature of people characterized as progressive. Indeed you seem to find this word further down.

Although Mencius does seem to be aware of this and tries to compensate for his utopian urges. Successful, or not? I leave that as an exercise for the reader.

3) Progressivism is not bad, but good.

I concede basically all your evidence and still know you're wrong - 'progress' is bad, as in it's not actually progress, overall, but chaos/unpredictability and destruction. I stress - overall.

It leads to disaster because it starts at disaster, just not obviously so.


TGGP,

It would be dishonest to say I laughed out loud, but I did crack a grin at that one.

/bow

October 11, 2009 at 9:09 PM  
Anonymous Hugo said...

Off-topic: Mencius, have a look at "The Lost Literature of Socialism" by George Watson.

October 12, 2009 at 1:33 AM  
Blogger Eric said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

October 12, 2009 at 9:35 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Without a host, the parasites die.
That's funny, because in this reality there's a country called Israel with a first-world standard of living and a vastly disproportionate number of Nobel prizes in the hard sciences.


And of course Israel is completely independent of the USA and not parasitic at all!

Occupation in WW2 is a poor explanation for European progressivism because Europe was already more progressive than the U.S, and differences in which countries were occuppied do not correlate with which European countries are more progressive.

The main effect of US occupation was to eliminate indigenous reactionary elements, allowing progressivism to flourish all but unchecked.

How do you determine which is the "most progressive" country?

October 12, 2009 at 8:44 PM  
Blogger TGGP said...

Anonymous:
You claimed at my blog that MM blocked you. Unless you're a different Anonymous. In any case, stop commenting as Anonymous!

U.S aid to Israel is a trivial portion of their GDP (and, of course, ours). They'd have plenty of money without it. I'd of course like to cut it off and wash our hands of the rest of the world, but it isn't that significant.

Italy was one of the Axis powers. Many of the fascists (who I assume you'd categorize as reactionaries) there later joined with the victors of the war (and the Mafia, which had been suppressed by Mussolini but played a key role in the taking of Sicily) for things like the Gladio stay-behind network and its strategy of tension. Today they still have a neo-fascist party in parliament led by a descendant of Mussolini.

October 13, 2009 at 6:58 PM  
Blogger TGGP said...

Continued:
The allied reliance on ex-Nazis is well known enough that I won't go into it. The chief of police responsible for the 1961 Paris massacre (given a Legion of Honour medal by De Gaulle that same year) had deported Jews under the Vichy regime. Under De Gaulle, France assisted Argentina with what would become Operation Condor, a relationship that lasted until 1981. Prominent in that connection was Cite Catholique (a year ahead of De Gaulle in Argentina), an offshoot of Charles Maurras' Action Francaise, founded in 1946. The militant French right did come to blows with De Gaulle (who came to power in large part because of prior uprising many of them were involved in), but that happened over a decade after the war and can't be attributed to the occupation.

October 13, 2009 at 6:59 PM  
Blogger Bill Costley said...

Thank you for quoting Robert Lowell. More people should.

October 27, 2009 at 10:49 AM  

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