Saturday, July 14, 2007 21 Comments

The Pigeon

God is the whick-whick-whack-whack-whock
of gray wings cut so short his elbows knock
like a high-test motor on low-test gas -
can they really lift his plump, silky ass?
He's the converse of the case from design,
the fake Rolex, the Mississippi line,
and if the thing has the shape of the hand
I almost feel like I've worked with the man,
a good guy, if you didn't let him near
your code. Who's really born an engineer?
Your pinky'd ought to have a Philips head,
and balance argues for the quadruped;
and yet he flies, this pig, a miracle,
a joke, a love note to the cynical.


Blogger Conrad H. Roth said...

Move over Lucian. Not too fond of the 'silky ass' though.

July 14, 2007 at 3:05 PM  
Anonymous PA said...

A fine poem, which does something only good poetry can: simultaneously articulates what I've always felt when seeing a pigeon, and paradoxicaly makes me look at one in a whole new way.

I agree that "silky ass" is distracting and makes the poem vulnerable to mockery.

July 15, 2007 at 7:00 AM  
Blogger Mencius Moldbug said...

And how many of you gentlemen have ever enquired into the asses of the Columbidae? I swear on the bones of Confucius - the pigeon has an ass, and lo, it is silky.

However, all my verse is open-source, and dissatisfied readers can patch in any other adjective with the same general sound, such as "gritty" or "chewy" - either of which would certainly make the line more interesting.

July 15, 2007 at 6:59 PM  
Blogger Mencius Moldbug said...

BTW, all animal poems fail in comparison to Marianne Moore. This one remaining rebel is the sparrow-camel...

July 15, 2007 at 7:02 PM  
Anonymous J .Goard said...

Hey, man, I love your blog, but your iambic pentameter is terrible. Lines 3, 4, 5, 7, and 8 completely crash. Nice line in "balance argues for the quadruped", though.

July 16, 2007 at 3:14 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, I would say that, however silky it may be, it isn't the pigeon's ass, but his breast, that is "plump", so it's that part of his anatomy to which this line should be directed, if you're wondering about how his wings can lift him. Other than that, which is distracting, I really like this poem.

alias clio

July 16, 2007 at 9:13 AM  
Blogger Mencius Moldbug said...

j. goard,

Thanks! Actually the verse is not meant to scan at all, at least not in anything like metric feet.

(But there was an extra "whick" in the first line, which I have taken the liberty of correcting. Somehow I managed to remember this and read it to myself as "whick-whick-whack-whack-whock", when the original text actually had three whicks. Early senility will certainly be my fate.)

Anyway, my view, which admittedly puts me in a minority but is certainly not my invention, is that the natural line in English, at least modern conversational English "as she is spoke," is a four-stressed line with arbitrary count and placement of unstressed syllables.

One way to hear this natural line is to read verse, rather than in the sonorous diction of Garrick and Kean, at a normal conversational speed with normal conversational enunciation. Or even exaggerate the speed, like a car salesman, to counteract the usual recital voice.

If you try this exercise with the above, I think you will hear the four-stress line. At least I hear it. It is certainly true that if you recite this poem in the usual manner in which one hears poetry recited, it sounds like terrible pentameter.

The idea that actors should speak in conversational English dates, of course, to the 20th century. For some reason it has gained much less acceptance in poetry, which is always essentially a monologue.

Even when you read silently, your brain is sounding out the words - if you take a functional MRI of a subject reading silently, the area of motor cortex that controls the voicebox is active.

And there is certainly nothing wrong with reading - silently or otherwise - in a Garrick and Kean metered voice. Or, for that matter, in a hushed, pompous NPR free-verse voice. Many very fine 20th-century poets wrote in each of these voices.

However, I am very confident that if you read it in either of these voices, my verse sounds like absolute crap, because it is not written to be sounded in this way. Read it as if you were making a telemarketing call, and it should sound fine (and if it doesn't, I hope someone will tell me).

For example, there is an extra "whick" in the first line of the poem as I posted it. It should be

July 16, 2007 at 10:21 AM  
Blogger Mencius Moldbug said...


But the breast is the flight muscle. It is lifter, not liftee. Also, the pigeon's ass should not be confused with its tail - the latter is under the former.

I am not sure if it is the ass that is causing the objection, or its silkiness. If the latter, perhaps a minor variation could be introduced, and we could say "plump and filthy ass." The pigeon's ass is debatably unsilky, perhaps - not that I agree with the argument, but I feel obliged to respect it. But any man who claims it to be clean has - if I may speak frankly - no knowledge of pigeons.

July 16, 2007 at 10:30 AM  
Blogger Mencius Moldbug said...

Of course I mean the tail is under the ass. I am not one of these posers, these chattering pseudo-birders, who know nothing of the noble pigeon! I see the pigeon on a daily basis, he has no secrets from me. I know him dorsal and ventral, upside down and inside out, I swear he has an ass and by Christ's tits it is silky.

July 16, 2007 at 10:37 AM  
Blogger Alias Clio said...

MM, I see what you mean. But really, it's the plump breast, which is what helps it fly, that makes it look so unable to do so. Paradox, you know.

July 16, 2007 at 11:00 AM  
Anonymous J. Goard said...

Anyway, my view... is that the natural line in English, at least modern conversational English "as she is spoke," is a four-stressed line with arbitrary count and placement of unstressed syllables.

Yes, the form of "The Road Not Taken", a truly great poem. I guess I shouldn't have knocked you so quickly... although there are other parts (particularly 9-12) that scan pretty well as I5, so that the intended pattern is suggested. You know, those lines actually remind me of "John Shade's" style and subject matter in Nabokov's "Pale Fire".

Anyway, having a degree in linguistics and currently studying a syllable-timed language, I support your view on at least one level: English in most natural contexts is definitely stress-timed.

The catch is, I don't feel that meter ought to feel like natural language, any more than, say, creative imagery is like ho-hum daily metaphor. (Put another way, when other aspects of a poem are "natural", we tend to use the epithet "cliched".) Rather, I relish the artificiality of the pattern, and the fluctuating tension it has with the natural prosody of the language. It kills me to hear certain formal poets (Frost!) read their work as entirely natural language, as if the feet, lines, and rhymes existed only to satisfy some arbitrary stricture, but were ultimately irrelevant to how the thing is realized in the auditory cortex.

I suppose this relates to my view that formal poetry after Yeats, Auden, Millay and Frost made a pretty natural migration to a certain segment of "popular music". And that, today, its best representative is nobody in the literary journals, but rather Aimee Mann, who employs complex stanza structures, great alliteration, and evocative ambiguity, and meshes it perfectly with melodic rhythm. Fitting words to melodies, of course, screws with their natural prosody big time. When words and melody are close enough to create tension but not breakage, it's a big part of the appeal for me.

July 16, 2007 at 8:21 PM  
Blogger Mencius Moldbug said...

j. goard,

Thanks again for your comments!

Of course I can't disagree with your perspective at all. The simple fact of the matter is that there is no one true and natural way to read verse - it is all an acquired taste.

BTW, I fluoroscoped my bookcase to see who I am parroting with this four-stress theory - the best expression I can find is definitely in Bunting. I strongly recommend this volume, and of course Bunting's own verse.

There is a very clear example of these divergent readings in the line you liked, "and balance argues for the quadruped."

You can scan this line as orthodox pentameter, with stresses "bal", "ar", "for", "qua", and "ped". But when you say it in a fast conversational tone, you notice that "for" is not stressed at all. It is not even a light stress - it takes no more stress than "gues" or "the". In fact, when I say it I tend to convert "for" into f-schwa or even f-glottal stop, "f'the".

Now it's definitely true that the tension between this reading and the pentameter reading is interesting, because the pentameter reading comes so naturally to mind for anyone who reads poetry - and if you don't read poetry, what are you doing reading poetry? And this expectation is reinforced by the presence of a rhyme scheme, because truly nasty effects can only be achieved by ill-rhythmed rhyme.

Still, the only way out of the ghetto is the door marked "exit." (It's definitely not the door marked "slam.")

July 17, 2007 at 11:12 AM  
Blogger Mencius Moldbug said...

Oh, and I agree - Aimee Mann rocks. Songwriting is not the same thing as poetry, but this does not make either form essentially inferior to the other.

I should also note that, for anyone still following the great "ass" debate, this humble gray beast is doing Empsonian duty in its own small way, as you can easily see if you replace "plump, silky" with the mere Saxon monosyllable "fat" - the ass, thus, both part and whole.

No reference to Buridan's ass is intended, however, although I'm sure it could be glossed as such. Dan, as everyone called him, always liked it back there. We used to do some amyls and watch Long Day's Journey into Dwight...

July 17, 2007 at 11:22 AM  
Anonymous tggp said...

Poetry just doesn't do it for me, unless it's funny. I don't really pay much attention to the lyrics in music either, and in fact I think it would be for the better if it was all instrumental (though that is partly because the singing is frequently awful and obtrusive, which doesn't have any analogue with poetry). There have been several times when I've looked up lyrics I couldn't make out to songs I've liked, only to come away with a lower opinion of the creators. This is perhaps an indication that I should seek out more music in languages other than english, and then never bother to look up translations for those songs.

Speaking on a somewhat related topic, a few days ago I read Kahlil Gibran's "The Prophet" (the reason was that years before I had come across a quote from him in the game "Deus Ex", which I was dissapointed to find was not actually in this particular work), on whose opening flap appears a quote from the Chicago Tribune: "...If there is a man or woman who can read this book without a quiet acceptance of a great man's philosophy and a singing in the heart as of music born within, that man or woman is indeed dead to life and truth". I am dead to life and truth. Oddly enough, I've enjoyed the work of Lord Dunsany, who was similarly inspired by the style of the King James Bible although he was an atheist.

July 17, 2007 at 5:02 PM  
Blogger Mencius Moldbug said...


If you don't respond to lyrics, you don't respond to lyrics. It's just neurology. If anything it probably makes you a superior human being.

Song lyrics are almost never readable as poetry, because they depend on musical accompaniment. Poetry without the line breaks is unreadable (ie, it reads as stupid) for exactly the same reason. The sound is crucial.

Lord Dunsany, however, was a great writer, whereas Kahlil Gibran was a New Age hack. I find this an entirely sufficient explanation of your experience!

July 17, 2007 at 5:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

tibia money tibia gold tibia item runescape accounts buy runescape accounts runescape money runescape gold runescape gp runescape power leveling runescape powerleveling cheap rs2 powerleveling runescape equipment buy rs equipment runescape runes cheap rs2 runes runescape logs cheap rs2 logs runescape items buy runescape items runescape quest point rs2 quest point cheap runescape questpoint runescape gold runescape items runescape power leveling runescape money runescape gold buy runescape gold buy runescape money runescape items runescape accounts runescape gp runescape accounts runescape money runescape power leveling runescape powerleveling tibia gold dofus kamas buy dofus kamas wow power leveling wow powerleveling runescape questpoint rs2 questpoint Warcraft PowerLeveling Warcraft Power Leveling World of Warcraft PowerLeveling World of Warcraft Power Leveling Hellgate money Hellgate gold buy runescape logs buy rs2 items cheap runescape items Hellgate London gold Guild Wars Gold buy Guild Wars Gold runescape items rs2 accounts cheap rs2 equipments lotro gold buy lotro gold buy runescape money buy runescape gold buy runescape runes lotro gold buy lotro gold runescape money runescape gold cheap rs2 powerleveling eve isk eve online isk buy runescape power leveling rs2 power leveling tibia gold tibia item runescape accounts Fiesta Silver Fiesta Gold SilkRoad Gold buy SilkRoad Gold Scions of Fate Gold Hellgate Palladium Hellgate London Palladium SOF Gold Age Of Conan Gold AOC Gold ArchLord gold tibia money tibia gold runescape accounts runescape gold cheap rs2 powerleveling buy ArchLord gold DDO Plat Dungeons and Dragons Online Plat

September 3, 2008 at 7:37 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,充氣娃娃,免費A片,AV女優,美女視訊,情色交友,免費AV,色情網站,辣妹視訊,美女交友,色情影片,成人影片,成人網站,A片,H漫,18成人,成人圖片,成人漫畫,情色網,成人交友,嘟嘟成人網,成人電影,成人,成人貼圖,成人小說,成人文章,成人圖片區,免費成人影片,成人遊戲,微風成人,愛情公寓,情色,情色貼圖,情色文學,情色交友,色情聊天室,色情小說,一葉情貼圖片區,情色小說,色情,寄情築園小遊戲,色情遊戲,情色視訊,情色電影,aio交友愛情館,言情小說,愛情小說,色情A片,情色論壇,色情影片,視訊聊天室,免費視訊聊天,免費視訊,視訊美女,視訊交友,視訊聊天,免費視訊聊天室,AIO,a片下載,aV,av片,A漫,av dvd,av成人網,聊天室,成人論壇,本土自拍,自拍,A片,情境坊歡愉用品,情趣用品,情人節禮物,情人節,情惑用品性易購,生日禮物,保險套,A片,情色,情色交友,色情聊天室,一葉情貼圖片區,情色小說,情色視訊,情色電影,辣妹視訊,視訊聊天室,免費視訊聊天,免費視訊,,視訊聊天,免費視訊聊天室,情人視訊網,視訊交友90739,成人交友,美女交友

November 6, 2008 at 5:54 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,美國aneros,rudeboy,英國rudeboy,英國Rocksoff,德國Fun Factory,Fun Factory,英國甜筒造型按摩座,甜筒造型按摩座,英國Rock Chic ,瑞典 Lelo ,英國Emotional Bliss,英國 E.B,荷蘭 Natural Contours,荷蘭 N C,美國 OhMiBod,美國 OMB,Naughti Nano ,音樂按摩棒,ipod按摩棒,美國 The Screaming O,美國TSO,美國TOPCO,美國Doc Johnson,美國CA Exotic,美國CEN,美國Nasstoy,美國Tonguejoy,英國Je Joue,美國Pipe Dream,美國California Exotic,美國NassToys,美國Vibropod,美國Penthouse,仿真按摩棒,矽膠按摩棒,猛男倒模,真人倒模,仿真倒模,PJUR,Zestra,適趣液,穿戴套具,日本NPG,雙頭龍,FANCARNAL,日本NIPPORI,日本GEL,日本Aqua Style,美國WET,費洛蒙,費洛蒙香水,仿真名器,av女優,打炮,做愛,性愛,口交,吹喇叭,肛交,魔女訓練大師,無線跳蛋,有線跳蛋,震動棒,震動保險套,震動套,TOY-情趣用品,情趣用品網,情趣購物網,成人用品網,情趣用品討論,成人購物網,鎖精套,鎖精環,持久環,持久套,拉珠,逼真按摩棒,名器,超名器,逼真老二,電動自慰,自慰,打手槍,仿真女郎,SM道具,SM,性感內褲,仿真按摩棒,pornograph,hunter系列,h動畫,成人動畫,成人卡通,情色動畫,情色卡通,色情動畫,色情卡通,無修正,禁斷,人妻,極悪調教,姦淫,近親相姦,顏射,盜攝,偷拍,本土自拍,素人自拍,公園露出,街道露出,野外露出,誘姦,迷姦,輪姦,凌辱,痴漢,痴女,素人娘,中出,巨乳,調教,潮吹,av,a片,成人影片,成人影音,線上影片,成人光碟,成人無碼,成人dvd,情色影音,情色影片,情色dvd,情色光碟,航空版,薄碼,色情dvd,色情影音,色情光碟,線上A片,免費A片,A片下載,成人電影,色情電影,TOKYO HOT,SKY ANGEL,一本道,SOD,S1,ALICE JAPAN,皇冠系列,老虎系列,東京熱,亞熱,武士系列,新潮館,情趣用品,約定金生,約定金生,情趣,情趣商品,約定金生,情趣網站,跳蛋, 約定金生,按摩棒,充氣娃娃,約定金生,自慰套,G點,性感內衣,約定金生,情趣內衣,約定金生,角色扮演,生日禮物,生日精品,約定金生,自慰,打手槍,約定金生,潮吹,高潮,後庭,約定金生,情色論譠,影片下載,約定金生,遊戲下載,手機鈴聲,約定金生,音樂下載, 約定金生,約定金生,開獎號碼,統一發票號碼,夜市,統一發票對獎,保險套, 約定金生,約定金生,做愛,約定金生,減肥,美容,瘦身,約定金生,當舖,軟體下載,汽車,機車, 約定金生,手機,來電答鈴, 約定金生,週年慶,美食,約定金生,徵信社,網頁設計,網站設計, 約定金生,室內設計, 約定金生,靈異照片,約定金生,同志,約定金生,聊天室,運動彩券,大樂透,約定金生,威力彩,搬家公司,除蟲,偷拍,自拍, 約定金生,無名破解,av女優, 約定金生,小說,約定金生,民宿,大樂透開獎號碼,大樂透中獎號碼,威力彩開獎號碼,約定金生,討論區,痴漢,懷孕, 約定金生,約定金生,美女交友,約定金生,交友,日本av,日本,機票, 約定金生,香水,股市, 約定金生,股市行情, 股市分析,租房子,成人影片,約定金生,免費影片,醫學美容, 約定金生,免費算命,算命,約定金生,姓名配對,姓名學,約定金生,姓名學免費,遊戲, 約定金生,好玩遊戲,好玩遊戲區,約定金生,線上遊戲,新遊戲,漫畫,約定金生,線上漫畫,動畫,成人圖片, 約定金生,桌布,桌布下載,電視節目表, 約定金生,線上電視,約定金生,線上a片,約定金生,線上掃毒,線上翻譯,購物車,約定金生,身分證製造機,身分證產生器,手機,二手車,中古車, 約定金生,約定金生,法拍屋,約定金生,歌詞,音樂,音樂網,火車,房屋,情趣用品,約定金生,情趣,情趣商品,情趣網站,跳蛋,約定金生,按摩棒,充氣娃娃,自慰套, 約定金生, G點,性感內衣,約定金生,情趣內衣,約定金生,角色扮演,生日禮物,精品,禮品,約定金生,自慰,打手槍,潮吹,高潮,約定金生,後庭,情色論譠,約定金生,影片下載,約定金生,遊戲下載,手機鈴聲,音樂下載,開獎號碼,統一發票,夜市,保險套,做愛,約定金生,減肥,美容,瘦身,當舖,約定金生,軟體下載,約定金生,汽車,機車,手機,來電答鈴,約定金生,週年慶,美食,徵信社,網頁設計,網站設計,室內設計,靈異照片, 約定金生,同志,聊天室,約定金生,運動彩券,,大樂透,約定金生,威力彩,搬家公司,除蟲,偷拍,自拍, 約定金生,無名破解, av女優,小說,民宿,約定金生,大樂透開獎號碼,大樂透中獎號碼,威力彩開獎號碼,討論區,痴漢, 約定金生,懷孕,約定金生,美女交友,約定金生,交友,日本av ,日本,機票, 約定金生,香水,股市, 約定金生,股市行情,股市分析,租房子,約定金生,成人影片,免費影片,醫學美容,免費算命,算命, 約定金生,姓名配對,姓名學, 約定金生,姓名學免費,遊戲,約定金生,好玩遊戲,約定金生,好玩遊戲區,線上遊戲,新遊戲,漫畫,線上漫畫,動畫,成人圖片,桌布,約定金生,桌布下載,電視節目表,線上電視, 約定金生,線上a片,線上a片,線上翻譯, 約定金生,購物車,身分證製造機,約定金生,身分證產生器,手機,二手車,中古車,法拍屋,歌詞,音樂,音樂網, 約定金生,借錢,房屋,街頭籃球,找工作,旅行社,約定金生,六合彩,整型,水噹噹,貸款,貸款,信用貸款,宜蘭民宿,花蓮民宿,未婚聯誼,網路購物,珠海,下川島,常平,珠海,澳門機票,香港機票,婚友,婚友社,未婚聯誼,交友,婚友,婚友社,單身聯誼,未婚聯誼,未婚聯誼,婚友社,婚友,婚友社,單身聯誼,婚友,未婚聯誼,婚友社,未婚聯誼,單身聯誼,單身聯誼,婚友,單身聯誼,未婚聯誼,婚友,交友,交友,婚友社,婚友社,婚友社,大陸新娘,大陸新娘,大陸新娘,越南新娘,越南新娘,外籍新娘,外籍新娘,台中坐月子中心,搬家公司,搬家,搬家,搬家公司,線上客服,網頁設計,線上客服,網頁設計,網頁設計,土地貸款,免費資源,電腦教學,wordpress,人工植牙,關鍵字,關鍵字,seo,seo,網路排名,自然排序,網路排名軟體,

January 31, 2009 at 11:09 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you wow gold were in wow gold any doubt buy wow gold that the buy wow gold God Wars cheap wow gold Dungeon was cheap wow gold challenge enough wow power leveling for you, wow power leveling look no further power leveling than the giant power leveling demon, K’ril wow gold Tsutsaroth. Once buy wow gold thought of as cheap wow gold nothing more world of warcraft gold confirm his existence.

February 11, 2009 at 6:48 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

^^ nice blog!! thanks a lot! ^^

徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社

^^ nice blog!! ^@^

徵信, 徵信, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 感情挽回, 婚姻挽回, 挽回婚姻, 挽回感情, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信, 捉姦, 徵信公司, 通姦, 通姦罪, 抓姦, 抓猴, 捉猴, 捉姦, 監聽, 調查跟蹤, 反跟蹤, 外遇問題, 徵信, 捉姦, 女人徵信, 女子徵信, 外遇問題, 女子徵信, 徵信社, 外遇, 徵信公司, 徵信網, 外遇蒐證, 抓姦, 抓猴, 捉猴, 調查跟蹤, 反跟蹤, 感情挽回, 挽回感情, 婚姻挽回, 挽回婚姻, 外遇沖開, 抓姦, 女子徵信, 外遇蒐證, 外遇, 通姦, 通姦罪, 贍養費, 徵信, 徵信社, 抓姦, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信公司, 徵信, 徵信公司, 女人徵信, 外遇

徵信, 徵信網, 徵信社, 徵信網, 外遇, 徵信, 徵信社, 抓姦, 徵信, 女人徵信, 徵信社, 女人徵信社, 外遇, 抓姦, 徵信公司, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信公司, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 女人徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 女子徵信社, 女子徵信社, 女子徵信社, 女子徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 征信, 征信, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 征信, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社,

March 2, 2009 at 8:03 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


March 6, 2009 at 9:23 PM  

Post a Comment

Subscribe to Post Comments [Atom]

<< Home