Monday, May 14, 2007 25 Comments

Idealism is not great

I have a standing offer of a bottle of Laphroaig for anyone who can supply me with an objective and nontrivial explanation of any distinction between the nouns idealist and ideologue as used in the contemporary English language.

Explaining that conservative ideologues are a dime a dozen, as are progressive idealists, but there are somewhat fewer progressive ideologues and it is almost impossible to find a conservative idealist even when you really need one, will not get you the whisky.

However, there's another meaning of idealist in English - a historical one. Idealism is actually a philosophical school. Or rather a number of philosophical schools. I find the term most useful as it pertains to the line from Plato to Hegel to Emerson to Dewey. (It sometimes helps if you think of them as evil kung-fu masters.)

Let's capitalize the word Idealist in this sense, so that we know we don't just mean a nice person who thinks the world could be improved.

An Idealist is a person who believes that universals exist independently. Specifically, in the modern sense, your Idealist believes in concepts such as Democracy, the Environment, Peace, Freedom, Human Rights, Equality, Justice, etc, etc.

What do these concepts have in common? One, they have universally positive associations. In fact they have no meaning without these associations. A statement such as "the Environment is evil" or "we must work together against the Environment" is simply not well-formed. It is the equivalent of Chomsky's "colorful green ideas sleep furiously."

Two, they are impossible to define precisely. It's fairly clear that they have no meaning at all.

For example, John Rawls wrote a whole book called A Theory Of Justice which purports to be a rigorous rational derivation of the New Deal regime. The fact that this work appeared in the 1970s, whereas the coup it exists to excuse occurred in the 1930s, should clue you in to the difficulty of Rawls' masterful performance. Of course, the Justice that Rawls so elaborately elucidates has nothing at all to do with the original English meaning of the word justice or its Latin basis, that is, the accurate application of the law. Rawls' ideal is probably best given in pre-Rawlsian English as Righteousness.

But it would be rather hard to call a book A Theory Of Righteousness without provoking at least a snicker or two. We all know there is no objective definition of Righteousness. And in fact, if anyone can go through the Federal Register with a red pen and explain which of these wonderful regulations are and are not Just, according to Rawls' "theory," he or she may earn that bottle of Laphroaig after all. (Just a page or two will do - to demonstrate the method.)

The case of the Environment is similar. We all know sort of what the Environment is supposed to be. But as with Justice, we don't have anything like a precise, objectively applicable rule for defining whether some action is good or bad for the Environment. For example, if we sell Golden Gate Park to Halliburton, as a combination condo subdivision and oil-services theme park, and give the resulting ninety billion dollars to the Wilderness Society so they can buy the entire island of Borneo and preserve it as orangutan habitat forever, is this good or bad for the Environment? Discuss.

This bizarre system of thought, which I hear may actually earn a mention in the DSM-V, is also entirely incapable of advising us on what to do when these ideals conflict. For example, suppose some action improves the Environment, but diminishes Justice? Or vice versa? Is this a good action, or a bad action? Discuss.

Idealists also recognize what might be called anti-ideals. These are just like the above ideals, except that instead of being good, they are actually bad. They have names like Violence, Inequality, Racism, and so on. One interesting quirk of Idealistic thinking, is that while ideals are typically used only as objects in the strange sentences these people form - such as "we must preserve the Environment" - the anti-ideals can be subjects, such as "Violence killed thirteen people in Iraq on Sunday." Apparently this sort of universal not only exists independently, but buys explosives and plants them in dead goats - a remarkable feat for any concept.

A little while ago I explained that religion, if we define it as a system of belief involving anthropomorphic paranormal entities, cannot directly affect reality. A belief about the paranormal world can be the ultimate motivation for an action in the real world, but it cannot be the proximate motivation for an action in the real world.

A long string of recent books, by very distinguished thinkers such as Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Daniel Dennett, have informed us that religion is, basically, evil. That is, that the optimal level of religion in society is like the optimal level of mercury in your milk: zero. Since I have no beliefs about the paranormal plane myself, I am naturally quite sympathetic to these volumes.

However, consider the form of such a book. Typically it is a list of great historical crimes, together with explanations of how religion was the ultimate cause of such and such a crime.

Naturally after reading such a book, one feels slightly jaundiced toward religion. But of course an argument of this sort, even if all of its history is perfectly correct (which it usually is), goes nowhere at all toward convincing any reasonable person that religion is some unique peril.

For example, one could assemble a similar book consisting entirely of crimes committed by Jews. Or Norwegians, or Inuit, or Buddhists, or brown-haired people, or any nontrivial set of humans past and present. Even if such a text made no connection at all between the Inuit upbringing of the criminals it rightly condemned, and the fact that their victims were so often found with gaping harpoon wounds, the reader would probably infer one, and come to the conclusion that these Inuit criminals should have their children confiscated and sent to special educational centers where they learn only love for the walrus and for the whale.

The inductive method, in other words, is simply not applicable to the task of discovering essential criminality in philosophies or traditions.

But since philosophies and traditions, whatever their criminal or non-criminal nature, do seem to have a suspicious involvement in the tremendous mayhem of history, perhaps it's worth looking around for another culprit.

My hypothesis, which any brave commenter is welcome to take a whack at, is that whether or not religion is the ultimate cause, the proximate cause of mayhem is generally Idealism. That is, when there is a problem with religion, in general the way the problem happens is that religion leads to Idealism, and Idealism leads to mayhem.

But since Idealism is perfectly capable of existing without religion - since, for example, most of your recent mayhem has been the result of nontheistic Idealist movements such as National Socialism and Marxist-Leninism - perhaps Messrs. Dawkins, Hitchens, etc, with all due respect, are chasing the tail and ignoring the dog.

In fact, if the type of Idealism that is caused by religion is actually milder and less murderous than the nontheistic variants - a hypothesis that's not at all improbable, considering modern history - attenuating religion may actually promote mayhem.

(Obviously this is a desperate plea for Andrew Sullivan to link to me again.)

Perhaps this week we'll look a little more closely at some of these murderous Idealisms...


Anonymous smb said...

I can't resist, given the prize:

idealist - one who hopes

idealogue - one who knows

May 15, 2007 at 12:09 AM  
Anonymous smb said...

Both, of course, are equally evil.

May 15, 2007 at 12:17 AM  
Blogger Victor said...

Idealist is one who is interested in their ideals at the expense of pragmatic concerns.

Ideologue is one who believes that their ideals in some way express or encompass the pragmatic concerns.

In short, ideologue is an idealist who believes he is a pragmatist.

All IMO of course.

May 15, 2007 at 6:14 AM  
Anonymous Stirner said...

Very nice - you seem to be approaching intellectual territory explored by my namesake.

"Man, your head is haunted; you have wheels in your head! You imagine great things, and depict to yourself a whole world of gods that has an existence for you, a spirit-realm to which you suppose yourself to be called, an ideal that beckons you. You have a fixed idea!"

His conception of ideals as sacred "spooks" seems related to your current line of inquiry. Perhaps Max Stirner was a formalist?

May 15, 2007 at 9:56 AM  
Anonymous Michael said...

Plato was certainly an idealist in the strict philosophical sense of the word , since he enunciated the doctrine of ideals. It is central to his epistemology. On the other hand he is an Idealist in your sense, since the "Republic" and the "Laws" project (different) ideal states.

An ideologue is one who tries to bring about in practice the ideals formulated by the idealist. Plato was not an ideologue. Neither the Republic nor the Laws carry any obvious suggestion on his part that they represent feasible political goals, and there is no evidence that Plato ever tried to influence Athenian society to adopt them as such.

Marx, by contrast, was both an idealist and an ideologue, since he not only devised a recipe for an ideal society but endeavored to realize it.

Most of his followers, be they the apparatchiks of the former Soviet state or the large numbers of American academics who style themselves Marxists, were and are merely ideologues, since they have contributed little or nothing new to the theory. Their efforts have been those of propagandists and enforcers, almost entirely as practitioners rather than as theorists.

May 15, 2007 at 10:44 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Rawls' Theory of Justice was all the rage, until philosophers asked how is "a veil of ignorance" possible, for beginners. His Kantian Politics exceeded Hyper-Rationalism's greatest extremes, making impossible demands, and those Kantian Categorical Imperatives started populating without population control. He's since "revised and extended his remarks," but I doubt anyone cares.

Down Harvard's hallways, Nozick's Anarchy, State, and Utopia faired a bit better, a libertarian manifesto. Nozick has "revised and extended his remarks" too, recognizing reductionism may be fine for analytic statements and scientific experiments, but not for a socio-political treatise. In many ways, he become more Hayekean, while positing some rather radical changes (like inheritances).

As a LIBERAL, I'm obviously idealistic. As an HUMAN, I try to be pragmatic and flexible. But I am INTOLERANT of INTOLERANCE, and ideologies of every stripe -- whether Marxist, Freudian, Evangelical, Deconstructionist, etc. -- deny the CENTRAL fact staring us all in the face, and confirmed by Darwin and his heirs. HUMANS ARE DIVERSE. The Universe is diverse.

As Plato's Big Lie was exposed in Harvard's biology department in the 1970-90s, "essences" are someone else fictive epistemology to "define" away those differences. The essence of SIN defines Christian anthropology. The essence of "dialectical materialism" defines the inexorable destiny of the Communist Utopia.

It's one thing to espouse IDEALS, it's another to preach an IDEOLOGY. I hope for a better society based on the Enlightenment's liberal ideals, but NO IDEOLOGY will make it more likely. That was Rawls' mistake. Liberal principles were insufficient, he believe, they needed a theoretical architecture to make them cohere. A theory of justice.

The Enlightenment knew better. DIVERSITY prevents such a theoretical architecture from cohering without becoming grotesquely absurd. Rather than over-laying some metaphysical template, DEAL with what's real. We are a DIVERSE species with DIVERSE features and properties that resists CONFINEMENT by essential definitions. Not to metaphysicians, we're not. They know our "essence," and can improve our perfectability by rational calculus. We never learn.

May 15, 2007 at 11:18 AM  
Blogger dearieme said...

I can explain the difference between "contemporary" and "current".

May 15, 2007 at 12:39 PM  
Anonymous George Weinberg said...

An Idealist is a person who believes that universals exist independently.

I think it's impossible to avoid a certain degree of idealism in this sense and avoid falling into nihilism. It's one thing to accept that we'll probably never have anything like universal agreement on questions of right and wrong. It's something quite different to assert that there is no right or wrong, just individual conceptions of right and wrong.

May 15, 2007 at 1:00 PM  
Blogger Mencius Moldbug said...

michael -

Plato famously went to Syracuse to be the chief philosopher of Dionysius II. The relationship did not work out well.

To be sure this involved a bit of traveling, but Plato's involvement in Athenian politics must have been nontrivial - after all, his mentor was the victim of a political execution, and two of his uncles were I believe among the Thirty Tyrants.

(All the good dirt on Plato is in Popper's Open Society And Its Enemies - I mean, of course, volume I ("Plato"). Popper's economics was not strong and his volume on Marx is not as good.)

May 15, 2007 at 6:44 PM  
Blogger Mencius Moldbug said...


I think you can build a working society whose only definition of "wrong" is breaking one's word - ie, the Roman principle of pacta sunt servanda.

Granted, most reasonable people would agree with you and not with me.

May 15, 2007 at 6:46 PM  
Blogger Mencius Moldbug said...


Diversity for me is all about decentralism. I am with Nozick on this one.

One good way, probably the best way, to compare the quality of two systems of government is to set them up next door to each other, and look at the migration flow between them.

I don't think a Rawlsian government can survive this test. I think it needs to rule the world. And Nozick has his flaws, but at least he can write...

May 15, 2007 at 6:50 PM  
Blogger Mencius Moldbug said...

I am sorry that the bottle of Laphroaig cannot at this time be awarded. (I have purchased it, however, and will hold on to it in case of any emergency.)

The suggestion that an idealist, small-i, is genuinely convinced that his or her ideals are not pragmatic, or not interested in putting them into practice, fails for me on the "idealists" of the '60s. (If you doubt this conclusion, watch the first 20 minutes of Zabriskie Point.)

May 15, 2007 at 6:53 PM  
Blogger Mencius Moldbug said...

stirner -

Your namesake is definitely an interesting character who I don't know much about. Can you recommend any single work or review?

dearieme -

Don't be such a tease! Correct me and be done with it. But I hope you're not thinking of the difference between contemporaneous and current.

(My problem is that I always want to say "modern." But this word makes me think of Gertrude Stein and A Moveable Feast. So...)

May 15, 2007 at 6:57 PM  
Anonymous Stirner said...
Is an in-depth overview of Stirner's thought.

This is a chapter on Stirner in a broader work, but it has a strong focus on the role of fixed ideas:

May 15, 2007 at 10:01 PM  
Blogger Mencius Moldbug said...


I'm afraid I would not agree with Stirner's concept of "self-mastery," at least as summarized in the review, seeing as it conflicts with pacta sunt servanda on account of Stirner's refusal to allow the present self to bind the future self. However, Stirner in this has good company with the modern libertarians, and the mainstream paternalistic liberals. It is my position, not his, that's arcane.

Stirner also seems to have struggled considerably to extricate himself from what he identified, quite rightly in my opinion, as a post-Christian morass of Idealist metaphysics. From the review it doesn't strike me that this struggle was entirely successful.

If there is a bright side to the violence of the 20th century it's that it forced a lot of Continental intellectuals to think in a clear, down-to-earth manner for the first time since the rise of maniacal, post-Bonapartist nationalist democracy. As far as I'm aware there is simply no 19th-century Popper or Mises - at least not east of the Rhine. It is hard to hold a figure like Stirner, or even Nietzsche, to this standard. It is like reading Victorian poetry. Again, at least for me.

May 16, 2007 at 12:02 AM  
Blogger Mencius Moldbug said...

btw, smb - I don't know if I properly considered your entry. The problem is that you have inverted the usual polar association of the words, quite delightfully but not quite objectively...

May 16, 2007 at 12:04 AM  
Anonymous Michael said...

You are right that Plato advised Dionysus II, and that he was apparently sympathetic to the aristocratic faction at Athens, but neither of these points necessarily relates to his philosophy. Is there any evidence to suggest that Dionysus or the Thirty Tyrants attempted to follow either the Republic or the Laws in the formulation of their policy?

Because the Republic and the Laws differ from each other it is almost impossible, based solely upon a reading of them, to say what Plato's practical politics were or how they had to do with either of those works. As for the cause of Socrates' condemnation, he left no writings. The portrait given of him by Xenophon is so different from that presented by Plato, that if the works of Plato had not survived we should probably not perceive him as we do. The only certainty is that Socrates of Plato's works is a mouthpiece for Plato's philosophy. That Plato was an idealist we can know from his writings; whether he was an ideologue is a matter of speculation.

I don't propose that the idealist must be "genuinely convinced that his or her ideals are not pragmatic..." but only that there need be an absence of significant effort on his or her part to put them into practice.

For example, consider the Communist parties in Western Europe during the period of the Cold War. Certainly they had their hard cores of genuine ideologues, but they included far larger numbers of hangers-on who never had any intention of actually living in Communist societies, which they could easily have done by settling to the east of the Iron Curtain, nor any real hope that such societies should be established in their own countries. With the fall of the Soviet Union which had propped them up, these parties collapsed and their former members drifted to other leftist parties or otherwise out of politics entirely. What would you call these people?

As for the 'sixties "idealists," a few combined the functions of idealist and ideologue in the manner of Marx (this was certainly the case with Marcuse), but most of them were simply ideologues of the lowest common denominator, parroting the lessons taught by their mentors, typically "dumbed-down" to the level of slogans such as "hey hey ho ho Western Civ has got to go" or "Ho Ho Ho Chih Minh, Viet Cong are going to win." Such devotion to the cause was rarely shown by those who didn't have a papa who supported them in their idleness. Those who haven't died or gone insane from venereal disease or too much dope now unfortunately dominate our university faculties. It is too pitiful for words.

May 16, 2007 at 3:41 PM  
Blogger Mencius Moldbug said...

michael -

Your comment is interesting but your stab at the whisky availeth not. Your definition of "idealist" and "ideologue" is certainly more useful than the objectively synonymous, politically polarized definition that I see people using. But what I don't see is any evidence that anyone but you uses the words this way. I remain open, however, to being convinced...

For all the reasons you cite, knowing much about the political lives of the philosophers is tough. I am not a classical scholar, and I was quite surprised when I learned from Popper of Plato's divergent representation of Socrates.

But in any case, we do know that Plato - and probably Socrates - was politically active. I think of what I'd call political quietism, your definition of "idealism," as quite alien to the participatory culture of Athens.

Quietism and conviction are a rare combination in general. During the period of political rage in the '60s and early '70s, people who weren't "doing something" felt genuinely bad about themselves. Over time they realized that very few had a chance to actually "do something," whatever that something was, and they chilled out a bit. But I'd argue that most still would have lent a hand if they got the chance.

Compare your Communist idealists to all the right-wing "impeach Hillary" ideologues. Most of these people weren't doing much, either, but I think few described them as idealists. So I'm afraid I still find the synonymous, polarized definition most compelling as a description of usage in modern English.

May 16, 2007 at 9:47 PM  
Blogger Conrad H. Roth said...

I'm sad to have missed this one.

"An Idealist is a person who believes that universals exist independently."

And as Popper ironically noted, these persons are also called Realists.

"Because the Republic and the Laws differ from each other it is almost impossible, based solely upon a reading of them, to say what Plato's practical politics were or how they had to do with either of those works. As for the cause of Socrates' condemnation, he left no writings. The portrait given of him by Xenophon is so different from that presented by Plato, that if the works of Plato had not survived we should probably not perceive him as we do. The only certainty is that Socrates of Plato's works is a mouthpiece for Plato's philosophy."

I mostly agree with this. My First Rule of Studying Plato (this also applies to Pythagoras) is: there are no certainties. The last one you mention has always been hotly debated, and the standard line is that the early dialogues represent the real Socrates, and the late ones are Plato himself. But this depends on a prior-established dating of the dialogues themselves, a dating which itself is reasonably tenuous: reading Ryle on Plato (an excellent book) is enough to show that one can draw opposite historical conclusions from the same data. Popper's assertions about the divergence between Plato and Socrates are nothing more than plausible speculations designed to suit his own rhetorical end. (As my father, who knew Popper, tells me, nobody was more totalitarian and unreasonable about his own ideas than Popper himself.) As for Xenophon, someone said that his Socrates was just too boring to be executed. And then there's the best Socrates of all: Aristophanes'.

It is definitely true that Plato's practical politics cannot be decided on the basis of his writings--and even the info on his trip to Syracuse depends on not very reliable sources, eg. the Letters, whose genuineness can never be proved or disproved, and Diogenes Laertius, writing 600 years later, and whose reliability is very difficult to gauge. My own humble opinion is that the Republic is essentially ironical, an exercise in dreaming an allegorical city according to the structure of the soul, whereas the Laws represents a more rounded and considered political system, complete with amusing remarks on enforced drunkenness and nude house-searching.

May 17, 2007 at 4:16 AM  
Blogger Mencius Moldbug said...

Conrad -

It's always nice to have a real scholar butt in! Thanks.

May 17, 2007 at 12:18 PM  
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January 31, 2009 at 11:47 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

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March 2, 2009 at 7:28 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

^^ nice blog!! thanks a lot! ^^

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March 2, 2009 at 7:29 PM  

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